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Why You Should Care (Read 5758 times)

Charlie

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #25 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:05pm

I'm not naive enough to believe that we haven't tortured people or will continue to do so. Every society has done it. BUT: The idea that it should be anywhere near legal or even codified in any form is disgusting and would put us on a par with our so-called enemies.

It's like profiling. It's done all the time. We all do it but it's not legal nor should it be codified. The same goes for the kind of wire-tapping done by the Bush crowd. It's old but at least we pretend not to do it. The idiocy of trying to make this stuff common or legal is stunning.

Charlie

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Brew

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #26 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:09pm

When it keeps people safe and alive, like it did with the foiled plot to hit Los Angeles, I have no problem whatsoever with it. And when you compare CIA methods with cutting off a living man's head on video, I have even less problem with it.

To even think about prosecuting the lawyers advising the CIA is a very dangerous precedent, and is in my humble opinion, ethical quicksand.

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

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monty

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #27 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:14pm

Brew wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:09pm:

To even think about prosecuting the lawyers advising the CIA is a very dangerous precedent, and is in my humble opinion, ethical quicksand.

You are right - if we started to hold lawyers accountable for providing bad advice to their clients, there's no telling where it would end ... we might lose another sector of the economy.

« Last Edit: Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:14pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #28 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:29pm On the other hand........if we do prosecute lawyers anyway, for this, it will create a whole new level of "reality TV" Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or Charlie
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karma CH.com Hall of Famer Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 937 St. Maarten/Neth. Antilles Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #29 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:35pm Brew, You mentioned lawyers and ethics in the same sentence. That takes talent. I gotta agree with the first paragraph though. The fight against terrorism requires different rules.
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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #30 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:43pm karma wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 4:35pm: I gotta agree with the first paragraph though. The fight against terrorism requires different rules. Cool. Some common ground.
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Bob P

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #31 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 7:28pm

Quote:

Policy disputes, often bitter, are the stuff of democratic politics. Elections settle those battles, at least for a time, and Mr. Obama's victory in November has given him the right to change policies on interrogations, Guantanamo, or anything on which he can muster enough support. But at least until now, the U.S. political system has avoided the spectacle of a new Administration prosecuting its predecessor for policy disagreements. This is what happens in Argentina, Malaysia or Peru, countries where the law is treated merely as an extension of political power.

WSJ

I agree.

Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron. "SHUT UP HUB!"

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karma CH.com Hall of Famer Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 937 St. Maarten/Neth. Antilles Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #32 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 8:51pm Ollie North and Iran Contra spring to mind. Burying past indescresions is not always the best policy. Folks with power sometimes need to be reminded that we are or at least try to be a country based on good moral principles.
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stevegeebe

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #33 - Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 11:33pm

I fully realize the broader issues associated with this debate. Just where is the line drawn and to what degree are we willing to accept the possible necessity of these actions considering what these people have done to us?

Outside of all of the secondary blathering about how we as a people should not act in this manner or that we have breached treaties we've endorse and now may look like hypocrites, I sense something else.

What is the real reason for the outrage? It seems to me that it is manifested in a palatable hatred for the former President, his staff and a real disdain for some on the other side of the aisle. How noble.

If this is the case, and I truly believe it to be so, I wish the people who are flaming this would just come out and say so. And don't try to tell me otherwise. Do they really think I am that stupid?

Once again, a crystal clear example of how we are being controlled and divided by these rouges. Pure politics...and little to do with noble constructs.

And when another attack happens, and it will because these people are patient and relentless, we will momentarily come together and then directly proceed to bickering about what went wrong and who is to blame.

In the mean time we will be burying our dead, should we be able to find the pieces, and building memorials while the terrorists plot another attack on a divided enemy.

This is a war and war is an unpleasant affair. And being nice to someone that would cut your high minded head completely off while yelling praise Allah is paramount to surrender.

My,... aren't we so civilized.

Steve G

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zwibbs-Scott CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Stay Strong !!! Posts: 2296 x1\|New Rochelle\|USA\|usa\|501\|104\|NY,New_York Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #34 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 7:14am I'm mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore !!! Obama promised change and better times ahead. Well---The Mets still suck and the only team they beat were the Brewers, but everyone is beating the Brewers--except the Phillies. "Yes We Can" --unfortunately We Can't right now.
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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #35 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:12am Seeing the Indians beat the Yankees 22 - 4...I think, during the first week at the new gazillion dollar stadium warmed my heart though. Charlie
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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #36 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:20am Charlie wrote on Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:12am: Seeing the Indians beat the Yankees 22 - 4... The end days are truly here.
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monty

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #37 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:52am

stevegeebe wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2009 at 11:33pm:

What is the real reason for the outrage? It seems to me that it is manifested in a palatable hatred for the former President, his staff and a real disdain for some on the other side of the aisle. How noble.

If this is the case, and I truly believe it to be so, I wish the people who are flaming this would just come out and say so. And don't try to tell me otherwise.

I really do think you have over-simplified it.

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Quote:

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The soldier above was sentenced to 3 years and got a dishonorable discharge - for what now seems to be merely following orders. Over 136 other members of the US military have also been disciplined or faced a courts-martial for similar actions. The people who gave the orders pretended that it was just a few bad apples that got perverted - they threw the front line under the bus to cover their own asses. We know orders can from the top that authorized all forms of dishonorable conduct. Military lawyers vigorously opposed the torture programs. This is a situation that is need of review - is the Uniform Code of Military Justice something to live by, or is it merely a collection of good ideas for people to consider from time to time?

« Last Edit: Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:53am by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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stevegeebe

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #38 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 2:32pm

Perhaps Monty. I have come to a point in my life where I seek simplicity. It shows up in the buildings that I design and way I analyze everything I observe. There is an elegance in simplicity.

Still, I get the feeling that it is less about deeds and more about the those who ordered this and making certain that an political opportunity is not lost on this unfortunate sequence of events. That is the point I was trying to make.

Just a simple observation. Let me know if you see this as well.

Steve G (I)

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monty

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #39 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 3:57pm

Nothing can be done in the political arena that will not gather automatic support from some (and automatic opposition from others) simply for partisan reasons. But I don't think that gives a blank check to who ever is in office.

Nixon was highly polarizing and lots of people were happy to see him fall ... but that wasn't the deciding factor - when certain evidence was brought forward, even many Republicans told him his time was up ... leave on your own, or be forced out with even stronger consequences than losing the presidency.

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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stevegeebe CH.com Alumnus Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 1687 Mandeville, LA Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #40 - Apr 24^th, 2009 at 7:51pm Fair enough Monty. There is a lot that smells here. And sadly it's going to be a grand spectacle to watch it play out. I think when it's all over both sides are going to get some of the stink. How do they get anything done up there? Oh!...that's right...they don't. Steve G
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Skyhawk5

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #41 - Apr 25^th, 2009 at 2:52am

What is Barak H. Obama trying to accomplish by telling the world these things?? Political whitewash? Show he's doing something?

The people in the pictures were punished and NO President, in those circumstances could have prevented those acts. Hindsight is 20/20.

We do learn from the past, but most important are the present and future. Our Government must always be questioned and forced to remain servants of the people. All the people.

In my opinion, telling our enemies and alies, during war time, things that could be delt with quietly, is just short of treason. The cost for politcal points is off base at best.

Don

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of the Beast , I have O2 so I fear him not.

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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #42 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 12:39pm Obama needs to flip again. Time to pretend that the last bunch was only stupid. Leave it alone. Sad, but I think I'm right. It would make an awful mess and I for one, don't need months of Watergate-like grilling by the Senate. Charlie
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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #43 - Apr 28^th, 2009 at 12:47pm Charlie wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 12:39pm: Sad, but I think I'm right. Nuthin' sad about that.
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catlind

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #44 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 8:40am

monty wrote on Apr 24^th, 2009 at 9:52am:

I really do think you have over-simplified it.

The soldier above was sentenced to 3 years and got a dishonorable discharge - for what now seems to be merely following orders. Over 136 other members of the US military have also been disciplined or faced a courts-martial for similar actions. The people who gave the orders pretended that it was just a few bad apples that got perverted - they threw the front line under the bus to cover their own asses. We know orders can from the top that authorized all forms of dishonorable conduct. Military lawyers vigorously opposed the torture programs. This is a situation that is need of review - is the Uniform Code of Military Justice something to live by, or is it merely a collection of good ideas for people to consider from time to time?

Monty - there is a code of conduct, under the UCMJ - every soldier, sailor, airmen and marine KNOWS without question what is an unlawful order and has the means to act against unlawful orders. Just because the order came down, does not excuse the soldier who carried it out.

Many of the 'career' military that I know, that take VERY seriously the oath to uphold and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic, have a set of principles. One certain major was brave enough to even speak it when asked if the president gave a command in direct violation of the UCMJ to discard/destroy the constitution - his response was "I'd shoot the president".

That was said, I might add, before 9/11 and under Bush.

Political powers have no real meaning to the men and women who truly value their oath. Commanders in chief come and go. The constitution remains.

Cat

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BarbaraD

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #45 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 10:59am

My 2 cents on this....

We, the American people ASKED for accountability and now that we're getting it, we don't want to face that it REALLY happened so we're wanting to hide our heads in the sand once again and make excuses... we tend to do that.

Some of the FACTS coming out now are showing that the INFO we received came out BEFORE the torture BEGAN and that we really received NO info after it began (check the facts), so did it really help?

Who's to be held accountable - time will tell. Should we prosecute? Who knows? Did it keep us safer - I don't think so, but I'm old what do I know? Are we more vunerable to attack today than we were back in Nov - I don't think so. I think we've gained some respect around the world since then.

I think it's a sad state of affairs when an ex-president or ex-vice-president can't leave the US without fear of being arrested for war crimes in a foreign country. But we don't want to think about that either do we? Most of us just want things the way they were back before 9-11 when our world was safe and secure.

Hugs BD Kiss

What don't kill ya, Makes ya stronger!

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Shawn

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #46 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 11:25am

Barbara,

I guess time will be the judge on whether or not the Obama administration has made us safer or not. I'm having flashbacks of the Carter years, and I don't feel safer, but let's wait and see how the next few years play out. My guess is our enemies are growing more confident every day, but I hope I'm wrong. It's never happened before, but I do hope I'm wrong. Tongue

-Shawn

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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #47 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 12:21pm History is an accumulation of error. Charlie
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BarbaraD

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Re: Why You Should Care
Reply #48 - Apr 29^th, 2009 at 12:38pm

You know what really ticks me off - our education system... back in the OLD days we had history class drummed into our heads - reasoning - so we wouldn't keep making the same damn mistakes over and over - maybe LEARN something from it.

Today - kids barely get a "touch" of history and then it's open to question (ie, the holocost - did it REALLY happen?, etc). They don't even teach Texas History in Texas schools any more. I think this is outrageous... I had to suffer thru it - what makes kids today special!!! Seriously, what kind of roots are they going to grow up with if they don't know where they came from and what it took to get here?

And Shawn, I hope you're wrong too... but only time will tell. This time I hope the glass is half full...

Hugs BD Kiss

What don't kill ya, Makes ya stronger!

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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Why You Should Care Reply #49 - Apr 30^th, 2009 at 11:04am I took college night courses in European and a smattering of world history. Try to find that in public school. Way back when, in my town, we had 1/2 school year in New York State history alone. We had a dedicated teacher. Yer right Barb. Charlie
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