I think it’s great on this forum that we have the freedom to discuss our political beliefs and more importantly our CH’s related dilemmas’ but we also have the freedom to hit the ignore button. So please feel free to read on or hit that button because I have a feeling that this won’t be a very popular post for two reasons.

(1) Its just too bloody long…!
(2) Its not what America wants to hear right now…!


But I do hope you choose to read on because my intentions are not to offend but to offer a voice from the other side of the spectrum….!

I have read with amusement on many of the political posts on this forum and how they basically end up Democrat vs Republican and very internal in relation to their content and also how Obama is a threat to America’s security. Please let me relate my story of living under an occupying foreign Army and why I believe that you’re former Commander in chief’s foreign policy will offer you no security from Islamic terrorists but having the opposite effect in swelling the ranks of Al-Qaida and increasing the risk to you my new found friends in America.

The American military are now making the very same mistakes that the British made when they returned to the streets of N.Ireland in 1969. Something I’m sure that we all would agree on is that the military are a fighting force and not a law and order force like the police, but this is exactly what your military are being asked to do in Iraq and to a certain degree in Afghanistan. By their presence and actions in N.Ireland the British army were the biggest recruiters for the IRA and unfortunately I believe the American army are also having the same effect in the Middle East.

Unfortunately I was born right in the middle of the troubles (1971). As I grew up I watched as the carnage unfolded around me. I was very fortunate that my parents were able to give me a very normal life and offer me guidance. I had no close family members or friends killed during these times, although I knew many people from my town who were not so fortunate. This is not to say I have been unaffected by events surrounding me. Depending on which army unit was on tour my friends and I teenage years were spent being stopped and searched, insulted and generally degraded by the army and police on a very regular basis. (The parachute regiment being the worst offenders)….!


On one occasion I was returning from my friend’s house at around 1am when I encountered an army patrol, unknown to me a couple of their colleagues’ had been shot dead in Belfast earlier that night, (For most young catholic men this was a reason to stay of the streets) understandable they were very agitated as they had just lost a couple of soldiers. But hence they made their first mistake like many soldiers before and after. They believed because I was a young catholic man living in a predominately catholic town that I must be either in the IRA or a sympathiser. (I was none of the fore mentioned, woman, music and the occasional sneaky drink were my main goal in life...) Needless to say I was severely beaten for being in the wrong place at the right time and not for the first time either. If I had have chosen to run there was a strong possibility that I could have been shot by a very young nervous soldier.  Don’t get me wrong I have spoken to some truly genuine sincere young squaddies over the years that unfortunately were just doing a job they loved in very difficult circumstances.


I used to wonder why the IRA used to blow up businesses in my home town which was 99% predominately catholic while they spouted the same old garbage that they were in existence to protect the catholic people from the British and loyalist death squads. Then it figured, what company would set up in town if this threat existed. If there was no employment and nothing flourished the people would become disenchanted and look for someone to blame, and they the faceless men would be waiting in the wings with their propaganda to swell their ranks with the youth of the town. Unfortunately the British army contributed to this influx to the IRA on many occasions with Bloody Sunday being there greatest massacre:
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Although I was never tempted myself as I was lucky and had some very strong role models in my life I could understand to a degree why some people chose this route.

Unfortunately I can see history repeating itself in the streets of Bagdad and Kabul. For every stray missile that kills civilians the Al-Qaida propaganda machine will be there to pick up the pieces. Please don’t mention unfortunate collateral: means nothing to the families….! There are many other similarities between both conflicts and interment without trial is one that stands out.

While internment in itself provided limited, if any, security benefits the social and political reaction which internment created far outweighed this. As a result violence increased and the SDLP, the only major Catholic political party in Northern Ireland, refused to become involved in political talks while internment continued. It is clear, however, that the main winners from the introduction of internment were the Provisional IRA, The army quite often simply picked up the wrong people, a son for a father, the wrong ‘man with a beard living at no. 47’ and so on. But by the time they were released, a number had suffered quite brutal treatment, as had those still detained … Internees were beaten with batons, kicked and forced to run the gauntlet between lines of club-wielding soldiers. I believe that this part of Irish history can easily be related to Guantanamo Bay and I can assure you the results are pretty much the same. (Victory for the IRA and Al-Qaida and defeat for democracy..!)


Like most people on this side of the Atlantic, when you voted in George Bush, we all knew it was only a matter of time before America became involved in the Middle East. It was going to happen 9/11 or not. Bush, Cheney, Halliburton etc could not see the carnage they would cause for the dollars lining the pockets of themselves and their cronies(Hence the so called WMD’s) .This is very difficult for me to say as I know many of you have military backgrounds and have sons and daughters in the military. You can not install a democracy with brute force, the only reason Bush and Blair invaded Iraq was oil and money, pure and simple. I feel disgusted as a citizen of the west that we all sat back when over a million women, children and men were slaughtered in Rwanda or the current plight in Darfur but ‘hey’ no money to be made.

In order to get your sons and daughters to fight they had to push the whole security of America depends on it crap…WMD’s, dirty bombs etc. Without question..! I know your children are fighting for the love of their country and more importantly for themselves and their colleagues but over 3000 young American soldiers have lost their lives and for what..! The allied backed Afghan Government has introduced a law which allows men to rape their wife’s if sex is refused. Al-Qaida’s numbers are growing each day and more worrying than any of the conflicts in the Middle East is the advancement of Al-Qaida in the nuclear power of Pakistan. Here lies the next battlefield where unfortunately more of your young soldiers will perish.


I really hope that President Obama follows through on his pledge to find alternative sources of power and severs your link with Saudi Arabia and hopefully you can bring your children home, and there you can defend your borders from attack and we across the Atlantic will stand shoulder to shoulder with you. But once you step foot in another Country there will be collateral damage and military mistakes made and after short period of time you will be seen as the oppressor and  I can assure you your enemy will be there waiting to capitalise on your mistakes.

As a nation you have some really great diplomats, Senator George Mitchell was instrumental in brokering piece in N.Ireland without him I don’t know if the outcome would have been as successful. I think you are such an amazing and powerful nation you really do not know what to do with this power at times. Engage in diplomacy America because believe it or not you’re really quite good at it.



Lefty…!

Brew wrote on Apr 26^th, 2009 at 9:34pm:

I did a nice wee kiddy version specially for you Brew. Loads of nice we pictures and all. If you want i can pm to you...!

Lefty...!

Brew wrote on Apr 26^th, 2009 at 9:43pm:

As I said in the post , As a nation you have some really great diplomats.



Lefty..!

Careful boys...I think he means it!

Joe

Thanks for this, Lefty. I find too many political opinions from "armchair" patriots boring. It's always refreshing to hear from someone with first hand experiences.

I'm glad to know that you are yours came through the troubles safely.

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A point Shelley Taylor makes about the youth in Middle Eastern turmoil with her book The Tending Instinct.

Whereas, unemployment and turmoil was very much the scenario for the UK youth of the 70's.  A strong reason they grasp very readily the punk movement in rock during the time, thanks in part to the Ramones first tour there.  Easy, expressive of the era, anyone could possibly do it, anarchy for some, like the Sex Pistols.

Living through it on this side with rebellious parallels of the age, decadent but truly great DAMN FUN!





joke I read:  What's a first offender called in Saudi Arabia?

Lefty

Personally, I hope our boys stay there until they kill every one of the stinkin Al-Qaida terrorists and maybe a few Tali-banners.

Fight them there or fight them here.  Those are the options.

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Cav,

Thankfully I never went through this myself  but I've heard it can be a very scary experience. Your daughter must have been absolutely terrified. You do wonder sometimes where they get their intelligence from...

Lefty...!

Lefty,

I hardly know where to start…  you’ve provided an interesting and provoking perspective…  It’s neither right nor wrong depending on your point of view…  and yes, it’s long, but you’ve every right to post it.  Having said that, if you want to pull the pin on a literary grenade with a post like yours and roll it down the bar, it’s probably best to do it in as few words as possible.  Perhaps it’s the devil you know rather than the one you don’t.  In any event, equating the conflict in North Ireland to the conflict in the Middle and Near East is far too naïve even for an Irishman.

I think the following best describes your post…   The Internet – “Interactivity has the virtue of democracy, conferring upon everyone with access to a computer the right and opportunity to be heard, but it's also saddled with democracy's vice -- a tendency to assume that everyone who has a right to be heard has something to say that's worth hearing.”  Wendy Kaminer, Sleeping with Extra-Terrestrials

Back to your analogy…  True, you’re just as dead if blown up by an IRA bomb as you would be if blown up by an al-Qaeda IED, and yes, there are thugs in every society ready to beat you senseless without any meaningful and enforced rules of law…  However, there’s a big difference in the motivation behind the acts of terror in Ireland and those committed in the name of Allah.

There are three important points your perspective appears to be missing… and these are likely the more fundamental differences between the Catholic-Protestant conflict in Northern Ireland and conflict in the Middle East…  They are the level of education or the lack thereof, the difference between the Judeo-Christian beliefs and that of Islam being practiced today, and the fact that the Muslims are taught by the Koran that they must conquer the world.  No mater how much Guinness Stout you can swill, the Irish had no such plans regardless of their Catholic or Protestant upbringing, then or now…

The Islamic population of the Middle East is predominantly poor and uneducated. The Mullahs like it that way and hate for the infidels is taught from birth…  That makes them very gullible and easily swayed to commit horrific acts of jihadic terror at the behest of the Mullahs and in the name of Allah.  

Leon Uris put it best in his book, The Haj – 1984.  “So before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life.  It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; and the tribe against the world…  And all of us against the infidel.”

Accordingly, in pretending to understand the fundamental motivation for the problems the world faces in the Middle East by drawing parallels with the Irish conflict, you draw a conclusion that is IMHO, very far fetched…  Again, that’s just my humble opinion…  Again, you draw on the devil you know…

Islamoterrorists use their religious upbringing and way of life as their sole rationale for committing acts of terror against the western world of non-believers in general, the big Satan - the USA, the UK, and with special malice to the little Satan - Israel.  

The Koran is very clear about all this…  You are either a believer in the ways of Allah - A Muslim, or you are an infidel with no rights who must be forced to pay a special tax (jizyah), which is traditionally levied once a year, or be put to the sword and killed!  There is no middle ground.  Moreover, calling for the defeat of the Western world’s free way of life by demanding the rule of Sharia law be imposed on all, only starts turning the clock back a millennium.

If you want some history and learned writings that place the situation with radical jihadist Islam in Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and the world in perspective, check out the following links.  Most of this can be a brutal and long read for those who’ve suffer from a politically correct, liberal education devoid of fact and un-revised history.  For the rest of us, a lot of it is just plain scary…   Just search on “Islam” and “Islam Churchill” at the following

URL Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

There’s also another document worth reading at:

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

There’s so much more to read.

You’re also coming out of deep left field by saying the United States will be safer with President Obama in the White House than it was with President Bush and Cheney…  That’s a loaded statement laced with Bush Derangement Syndrome, and one that requires a more scholarly understanding of history than saying the US is repeating it by going into Iraq and Afghanistan for any reason…  

Your fellow countrymen have a history of being in Iraq and Afghanistan…  Do a little reading…  They were there before WWI.  In a sense, the US is making history in Iraq by spending a lot of time and blood building a democracy…  something no other nation has ever done…

Obama hasn’t the slightest understanding of the Marines that guard him, their history, or the Marine Corps Hymn…  His on- or off-TOTUS comments made that clear when he said to the people of Turkey "Let me say this as clearly as I can: the United States is not and will never be at war and with Islam."  While that may be his plan, he failed to recognize the historical fact that the first war the United States fought in it’s early infancy as a new nation, was a war against Islam in the form of the Barbary Pirates on “the shores of Tripoli.”  That kept them and the rest of us in the world free of piracy on the high seas for over 200 years.  

The actions President Bush took have kept the people of the United States free of further attacks by the islamoterroists.  That’s a fact…  So far all we’ve seen of President Obama at home and on the world stage is a lot of kowtowing and glad-handing with thugs, a lot of blame America, but not me…  and that has left the people of the United States standing there open kimono…  It’s difficult at best to see where any of this has made life safer for the people of the United States.

Finally, as provoking as it might be, your post rather resembles the tale of Snow White...  Unfortunately, unlike that fairy tale, there is no happy ending as the realty of the real world is very different...  If we do not answer the fundamental terror there at our doorstep with sufficient force, it will come into our homes and we will be lost…  The world will continue to encounter terrorist acts from radical Islam until it is crushed…  

It’s not just because we are Americans, British, Irish, Israelis, or any other Western nation...  It’s because we are infidels to them and we represent a threat to their goal of imposing Islam the will of Allah over the rest of the world...


Michael

The Irish conflict wasn't so much about religion as it was about the Brits & Scots occupying Northern Ireland.  The Brits & Scots were Protestant, the Irish were Catholic.  Protestants vs Catholics is another way of saying Brits vs Irish.

wildhaus wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 11:18am:

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Lefty wrote on Apr 28^th, 2009 at 3:33pm:

Kevin am I bad...!

Sorry bud back up against the wall..!

I know my grammar isn't the best , my friend i have been slapped about by enough Christian brothers for bad punctuation. Thought it was getting personal again misread your intentions, i apologise.

Takes a bit of getting used to these forums..

Remark duly taken back...

Lefty...!