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House bill would make health care a right (Read 4510 times)

KingOfPain

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House bill would make health care a right
Jul 15^th, 2009 at 11:51am

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House bill would make health care a right

The Associated Press
Wednesday, July 15, 2009
By ERICA WERNER

WASHINGTON (AP) - House Democratic leaders, pledging to meet the president's goal of health care legislation before their August break, are offering a $1.5 trillion plan that for the first time would make health care a right and a responsibility for all Americans. Left to pick up most of the tab were medical providers, employers and the wealthy.

"We cannot allow this issue to be delayed. We cannot put it off again," Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce committee, said Tuesday. "We, quite frankly, cannot go home for a recess unless the House and the Senate both pass bills to reform and restructure our health care system."

In the Senate, Majority Leader Harry Reid said he wanted floor debate to begin a week from Monday. With the Senate Finance Committee still struggling to reach consensus, that timetable could slip. Even so, it underscored a renewed sense of urgency.

Obama himself was driving the action, going off-script to push the issue during a speech in Michigan and scheduling a Rose Garden news conference for Wednesday to make more comments on the topic.

"There's going to be a major debate over the next three weeks," Obama said in Warren, Mich., deviating from his prepared text on new spending for community colleges. "And don't be fooled by folks trying to scare you saying we can't change the health care system. We have no choice but to change the health care system because right now it's broken for too many Americans."

All involved were mindful of the dwindling days before Congress leaves town. Obama wants legislation through the House and Senate before then to slow rising costs and extend coverage to some 50 million uninsured Americans.

Under the House Democrats' plan, the federal government would be responsible for ensuring that every person, regardless of income or the state of their health, has access to an affordable insurance plan. Individuals and employers would have new obligations to get coverage, or face hefty penalties.

The legislation calls for a 5.4 percent tax increase on individuals making more than $1 million a year, with a gradual tax beginning at $280,000 for individuals. Employers who don't provide coverage would be hit with a penalty equal to 8 percent of workers' wages, with an exemption for small businesses. Individuals who decline an offer of affordable coverage would pay 2.5 percent of their incomes as a penalty, up to the average cost of a health insurance plan.

The liberal-leaning plan lacked figures on total costs, but a House Democratic aide said the total bill would add up to about $1.5 trillion over 10 years. The aide spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the private calculations.

Three House committees will begin voting on the bill Thursday. Changes in the legislation are likely to satisfy a group of moderate and conservative Democrats who are withholding support.

The 1,000-page bill is unlikely to attract any Republican backing, and business groups and the insurance industry immediately assailed it as a job-killer.

The business groups also warned that the U.S. health care system could be damaged by adding a government-run insurance plan and a federal council that would make some decisions on benefits, as called for in the legislation. Thirty-one organizations signed the letter, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the Business Roundtable representing top corporate CEOs and the National Retail Federation.

The House bill seemed unlikely to win broad backing in the Senate, where the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee was expected to finish its version of the legislation Wednesday in what was looking to be a party-line vote.

The Finance Committee was striving to produce a bill by the end of the week, though the committee's chairman, Sen. Max Baucus, D-Mont., acknowledged it would be a challenge to meet Obama's timeline.

"I think it's a lift but one we could accomplish, one we could handle," Baucus said. "I'm not going to guarantee that it's going to happen."

Associated Press writers David Espo, Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar, Alan Fram and Andrew Taylor contributed to this report.

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From the article:
"Individuals who decline an offer of affordable coverage would pay 2.5 percent of their incomes as a penalty, up to the average cost of a health insurance plan."

"Affordable coverage."
Whatever that is & who and/or what decides what price is "affordable"
to each person/family?

Smiley

Edit to add an update on topic.

Senate health committee clears insurance overhaul

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« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2009 at 12:07pm by KingOfPain »

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KingOfPain

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #1 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 11:59am

This also caught my attention.

Senate Bill fines people/U.S. citizens‏

Senate Bill fines people refusing to buy health care
Friday, July 3, 2009

WASHINGTON - Americans who refuse to buy affordable medical coverage could be hit with fines of more than $1,000 under a health care overhaul bill unveiled Thursday by key Senate Democrats looking to fulfill President Barack Obama's top domestic priority.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated the fines will raise around $36 billion over 10 years. Senate aides said the penalties would be modeled on the approach taken by Massachusetts, which now imposes a fine of about $1,000 a year on individuals who refuse to get coverage. Under the federal legislation, families would pay higher penalties than individuals.

In a revamped health care system envisioned by lawmakers, people would be required to carry health insurance just like motorists must get auto coverage now. The government would provide subsidies for the poor and many middle-class families, but those who still refuse to sign up would face penalties.

Called “shared responsibility payments,” the fines would be set at least at half the cost of basic medical coverage, according to the legislation. The goal is to nudge people to sign up for coverage when they are healthy, not wait until they get sick.

In 2008, employer-provided coverage averaged $12,680 a year for a family plan, and $4,704 for individual coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation's annual survey. Senate aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the cost of the federal plan would be lower but declined to provide specifics.

The legislation would exempt certain hardship cases from fines. The fines would be collected through the income tax system.

Obama wants a bill this year that would provide coverage to the nearly 50 million Americans who lack it and reduce medical costs.

In a statement, Obama welcomed the legislation, saying it “reflects many of the principles I've laid out, such as reforms that will prohibit insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions and the concept of insurance exchanges where individuals can find affordable coverage if they lose their jobs, move or get sick.”

The Senate Health Education, Labor and Pensions bill also calls for a government-run insurance option to compete with private plans as well as a $750-per-worker annual fee on larger companies that do not offer coverage to employees.

Sens. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., and Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., said in a letter to colleagues that their revised plan would cost dramatically less than an earlier, incomplete proposal, and help show the way toward coverage for 97 percent of all Americans.

In a conference call with reporters, Dodd said the revised bill had brought “historic reform of health care” closer. He said the bill's public option will bring coverage and benefit decisions driven “not by what generates the biggest profits, but by what works best for American families.”

The Congressional Budget Office, in an analysis released Thursday evening, put the net cost of the proposal at $597 billion over 10 years, down from $1 trillion two weeks ago. Coverage expansions worth $645 billion would be partly offset by savings of $48 billion, the estimate said.

However, the total cost of legislation will rise considerably once provisions are added to subsidize health insurance for the poor through Medicaid. Those additions, needed to ensure coverage for nearly all U.S. residents, are being handled by a separate panel, the Senate Finance Committee. Bipartisan talks on the Finance panel aim to hold the overall price tag to $1 trillion.

The Health Committee could complete its portion of the bill as soon as next week, and the presence of a government health insurance option virtually assures a party-line vote.

In the Senate, the Finance Committee version of the bill is unlikely to include a government-run insurance option. Bipartisan negotiations are centered on a proposal for a nonprofit insurance cooperative as a competitor to private companies.

Three committees are collaborating in the House on legislation expected to come to a vote by the end of July. That measure is certain to include a government-run insurance option.

At their heart, all the bills would require insurance companies to sell coverage to any applicant, without charging higher premiums for pre-existing medical conditions. The poor and some middle-class families would qualify for government subsidies to help with the cost of coverage. The government's costs would be covered by a combination of higher taxes and cuts in projected Medicare and Medicaid spending.

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Let's see, 1st they fine you if you refuse to buy "affordable" medical coverage [like I said in 1st post, whatever "affordable coverage" is & who decides what price is "affordable" to each person/family?]...& [2nd], also raise your taxes too?

Shocked

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Melissa CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Don't give up! Posts: 7238 Central WI, USA Gender:	Re: House bill would make health care a right Reply #2 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 2:33pm
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Guiseppi CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011 Posts: 12063 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA Gender:	Re: House bill would make health care a right Reply #3 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 2:38pm I'll still sleep well because I've come to realize only my goverment can possibly know what's best for me! Sleep well comrades, our goverment will take care of everything! Joe
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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #4 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 3:11pm

KOP,

Thanks for showing how the social progressive liberal idiots in the politburo will promise anything to buy votes in order to stay in power.

Health Care is NOT a RIGHT!... It's not in the Constitution...

"WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, ESTABLISH JUSTICE, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common
defence, promote the general welfare, and SECURE THE BLESSINGS OF LIBERTY TO
OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY, do ORDAIN and ESTABLISH this Constitution for
the United States of America."

Nor is it in the Bill of Rights!

If you look carefully at the text of both the Senate and House versions of this POS... and you listen to the propaganda from the State sponsored media, you'll see and hear where they will "Squeeze more than $500 Billion in savings from Medicare Improvements."

True, Medicare is a bloated failure and there are clear economies that could be accrued with real leadership... Unfortunately this "Squeeze" that tax cheat and Ways and Means chair idiot Wrangle talked about will mean doctors and hospitals will get paid less per procedure and this will lead to same-day Walk-in Crawl-out birthing or major surgeries and a major shortage of doctors who will realize they can make a better living as veterinarians.

I've taken the liberty of responding to this post for those who didn’t read my last on this topic and the folks I know. I've also used most of the following in faxes and email to my Congressional Representative idiot and the two idiot Senators from Virginia.

We do need health care reform and we do need to offer constructive suggestions. The real question is to whom do we make these recommendations to and whom can we trust to carry them out? Yes Medicare has been a godsend to many... albeit only on one hand. On the other hand, it's been a nightmare to other recipients and the future of its unfunded obligations is frightening.

IMHO, Medicare is also a classic example of what we don't need more of in another Government run entitlement program. It's larded with bureaucracy yet it's being used as a pattern for the administration's goal of Government provided health care. Medicare is fraught with misuse, abuse, fraud, and a tangle of bureaucratic red tape that confounds beneficiaries and providers alike... Providers that get paid within 30 days after billing to Medicare are as numerous as horse feathers.

On top of that... Medicare is already rationing health care to its beneficiaries. While that is not necessarily bad, it offers a perspective that few really know about or understand.

I offer the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) plan for cost reduction in home oxygen for over a million Medicare beneficiaries suffering from COPD over the next 4 years illustrated in the chart below.

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If you read the chart carefully you’ll see that there's a reduction in cost accrued primarily through the use of oxygen concentrators over compressed oxygen...

However, what is most disturbing is the dark side of this chart where they accrue the majority of the cost savings through a reduction in the actual number of Medicare beneficiaries using home oxygen each year.

You can read this part of the chart any number of ways, but none bring any comfort…

The bottom line should be clear… Plan on even more rationing with government run health care. The government is rationing health care now!

If they’re allowed to continue the present plan, the CMS will reduced Medicare coverage for home oxygen for senior citizens suffering from COPD by 97% in just 4 years. That's a reduction in home oxygen expenses from $1,698,942,207 in 2009 down to $51,623,840 in 2013.

Can we use a little simple math and some common sense here? What will happen when roughly 78 million more boomers become Medicare recipients over the next 17 years? Dr. Dawson, y ou're a physician, please tell us there will be enough primary care physicians to go around when there isn't enough now and there's no plan or incentives to generate more? What happens when present medical system gets flooded with the trumped up figure of over 40 million more government provided health care recipients and the number of primary care physicians remains the same or declines?

And… While this is happening, the taxpayer funded S-CHIP will provide $9.9 Billion worth of “free” medical insurance in FY 2010 to children of low-income parents… In some cases up to the age of 19 depending on the State… (See H.R. 2 entitled ‘‘An Act to amend title XXI of the Social Security Act to extend and improve the Children’s Health Insurance Program, and for other purposes.’’ - January 29, 2009). I've read it... The other purposes it makes me sick, but Medicare will not cover treatment for this sickness.

Want to guess how many of these children are anchor babies born to illegal immigrants???

I found an estimate that’s as good as any… Using the March 2005 Current Population Survey, the Pew Hispanic Center estimated in 2006, there were 3 million U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants in the U.S.

The way I see it, the social progressive liberals in the politburo don’t really care about us old folks... They just want to stay in office and in power...

It also appears the CMS cost reduction plan for home oxygen therapy reflects the handy work of tax cheat Tom Daschle who said, “health-care reform will not be pain free.” “Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.”

That means we… the elderly, will bear the brunt. This must be terribly frightening to COPD sufferers who can do little for themselves without supplemental oxygen… and for the rest of us for that matter, when you consider the 78 million more baby boomers coming into Medicare with a shortage of primary care physicians.

The dirty little secret is the social progressive liberals in the politburo would rather pander to children of low-income parents as potential voters using the taxpayer’s money for S-CHIP rather than on the old folks… “hoping of course, ” these children will be more likely to vote the liberal ticket when they reach voting age…

Unfortunately the idiots on the right side of the isle haven’t been able to stop this egregiousness…

GAO assessed our Nation's social-insurance programs and estimated last year that the unfunded obligations for Medicare and Social Security alone totaled almost $41 trillion. That sum, equivalent to $352,000 per U.S. household, is the present-value shortfall between the growing cost of entitlements and the dedicated revenues intended to pay for them over the next 75 years.

So where do we go from here? We've got a rogue Congress hell bent on spending us into generational debt with so many expanded social entitlement programs and pork the Treasury can't borrow enough money to make ends meet so it now prints it at the fastest rate in history. The deficit is already at $1 Trillion dollars and if you connect the dots, it will be much higher by the end of the fiscal year... We now owe the equivalent of a quarter of our entire GDP to foreign debt... read China and Japan as the biggest holders of US Treasury notes...

We also have a President that has failed to honor his promises of transparency in government with more Tsars than any other president or the Russians and all with no accountability for their actions or oversight by the politburo... Where are the Bolsheviks when we need them? The president has also failed give to give us 5 days to read and comment on legislation passed by Congress before he signs it into public law.

The promises he has kept only serve as an example of what we were told to fear during his election campaign... They clearly show him to be a Marxist trained community organizer steeped in liberation theology and the most radical left wing president in the history of our great Nation.

With the help of the idiots in the politburo, this administration is executing the Cloward-Piven strategy (Google it) with flawless accuracy and frightening speed using Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals. If they are allowed to continue at their present rate, they will destroy capitalism, our economy, our Constitution, and relegate the greatest Nation in history the world to a third-world nation status in 4 years.

I'm not a doctor and I'm not a lawyer, and I'm for sure not into that "Hopey Changey" thing. I'm just a conservative old retired Naval Officer and fighter pilot with too many night carrier landings and over 24 years of proud service to our great Nation.

In the last 12 months, I've watched my life savings and property value drop 30% and my 401k/IRA shrink to a 301k. I'm also the kind of guy that downloads and reads legislation like the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 a.k.a. the Porkulus bill, and the Crap on Trade carbon tax bill that will let buffoons like Al Gore make billions by trading frozen flatulence faster than Bernie Madoff with even more disastrous results.

I also read the latest GAO and CBO reports on our economy. I know the folks at GPO who run the "getdoc.cgi" download site that holds all the legislation that we're supposed to have 5 days to read and comment on prior to being signed into law... And, they know me on a first name basis.

Folks... unless you've read it and done a key word search to total them up, you have no idea of the number of amendments to other existing statutes and public law the ARRA of 2009 a.k.a. Porkulus bill made... I'll tell you... there were 412 amendments to existing code and the idiots that voted for it never read it... or debated it... Hell... They didn't even write it… Lobbyists for their major contributors wrote it for them.

I don't have all the answers, but I do have a few suggestions:

1. The first thing I suggest is demanding some common sense from our elected officials including the possession of sufficient remedial math skills to write a balanced budget. And, if our elected officials don't deliver on that simple task, advise them to seek employment elsewhere rather than run for reelection.

In the mean time, we need to make a list of the politburo members that need to be weeded out of our government. Let's start by selecting the idiots that committed the most egregious act of voting for bills like HR 1 The ARRA of 2009 without reading or debating them.

They get voted out of office first if for no other reason than failing to uphold their Oath of Office... They have become the domestic enemies of the constitution they swore to protect. And, if those guilty of this egregious offense reside on the right side of the isle... they go too.

That's my common sense Step 1 suggestion and it sets the stage for the rest of my suggestions:

2. Our Nation has a major shortage of Primary Care Physicians now... Adding over 40 million uninsured to government run healthcare is a sure recipe for a disaster in healthcare of Chernobyl proportions. Suggested solution: Offer every incentive possible to educate and train more Primary Care Physicians, Physician's Assistants, and RNs, starting first and preferably with citizens from the United States. Medical students graduate from Medical Schools now with student loans averaging over $140K. If necessary, the Government should pick up the tab for these loans in return for 5 years directed service as a Primary Care Physician in a geographic region where they are needed most.

3. Malpractice insurance costs are out of sight... Rather than put a bounty on slip & fall ambulance chasing lawyers... (That's not a bad idea as long as you bring them back alive.)... We need meaningful medical tort reform. Until we have it, what little flow of new doctors we have now will be away from primary care practices in small towns and over to the big medical centers where group malpractice insurance is less expensive.

4. Reexamine and make necessary changes to the medical fee for service system that drives new doctors into the more lucrative specialties and enables them to charge more for time spent with patients thanks to the Healthcare Common Procedure Coding System (HCPCS) billing codes used by medical insurance companies to charge for each procedure. Want to hazard a guess what will happen to the cost of these procedures when the “squeeze” hits?

5. Rewrite the tax laws to give everyone the same tax exempt status on medical insurance premiums enjoyed by employees of large businesses as well as Federal and State government employees. Provide a means tested tax credit worth up to 25% of the annual health care insurance premiums for low-income families and individual citizens.

6. Maintain our "Freedom of Choice" when it comes to selecting market driven health care plans. Insurance cooperatives may be a good idea compared to any new government option where the umpire works for the biggest major league team owner of the all, the US Government and we would have the farthest thing from a level playing field with respect to options... After all, we have Government provided health care now in Medicare, Medicaid, and the VA.

7. If we want a best of bread or best practice health plan as a pattern, why not use the Safeway health care plan that has held costs flat since 2005 while other health care plans climbed 38%. The key to achieving these savings is health-care plans that reward healthy behavior. As a self-insured employer, Safeway designed just such a plan in 2005 and has made continuous improvements each year. Their results have been remarkable and employees holding these plans like them... Quit smoking for a year and your insurance premiums go down. Lower your cholesterol levels and your insurance premiums go down. Lose weight and the premiums drop even further. For more details see the following link...

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There are obviously many other common sense suggestions that would help... If we could accomplish just a few of them, we as a Nation would be several steps closer to meaningful health care reform.

Meanwhile, the White House and the idiots in the politburo have turned up the PR volume over the last two days after rolling out their latest drafts Universal Health Care plan... What you will not hear in all this propaganda is that major segments of the private healthcare industry will be turned over to civil servants belonging to government unions…

If you thought dealing with a private medical insurance company was hard… Wait until you start dealing with professional bureaucrats with no motivation to serving the public… only to maintaining their protected jobs…

Remember… There’s no such thing as a free lunch… All these new surtaxes start in the year the Bush Tax Cuts end and they come on top of existing taxes… The big problem with the new surtax is simple… It’s not going to be enough… So this is only the beginning. … If ends don’t meet… and they will not as even the local DC fish-wrap has done the math showing this will not generate the funds needed to finance obamacare… Sooo... the surtax rates will go up and the AGI bogeys will go down.

Take care, and if you don't tell your congressmen how you feel about all this on a daily basis… BOHICA...

V/R, Batch

You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there

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Bob P

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #5 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 3:18pm

Once again they are employing the "Chicken Little" strategy.

We have to pass TARP now or the economy will fail.
We have to pass Cap and Tax now or the Earth will fail.
We have to pass Health Tax now or our way of life will fail.

Baaa, Baaa, Baaa, the masses follow the leader. I watched an Obama advisor on the Sunday talk shows. When asked how we would pay for health care he responded that we can't allow ourselves to be bogged down in these same old questions. It has to be passed.

« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2009 at 3:20pm by Bob P »

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Kirk CH.com Alumnus Offline VINIMUS, VIDIMUS, DOLAVIMUS Posts: 2393 Harts Lake, WA Gender:	Re: House bill would make health care a right Reply #6 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 6:26pm *I could almost agree with you Pete. If you could only see your way to DEAD or alive on the ambulance chasing lawyers point.*
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Kilroy 2.0

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #7 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 6:55pm

So I have lost my job because of the poor economy, we have one income supporting the family. Can't make our mortgage and keep health insurance, the taxes taken out of the pay check have increased so we choose to keep the house because we can't sell it because it is worth less now then when we bought it do to the down turn in the housing market. So my government will fine me 1000 to insure that I loss everything and end up in government housing with government paid for food and medical care.

whoo hoo go freedom!!!

(edit to add this is a hypothetical situation) Although I am unemployed at this time Cheesy

« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2009 at 7:55pm by Kilroy 2.0 »

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #8 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 7:23pm

For those of you that don't know what is happening it is called:

The Cloward-Piven Strategy

The 'Cloward-Piven Strategy'* was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. David Horowitz summarized it as a strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis: ''The ‘Cloward-Piven Strategy’ seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.'

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #9 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 7:45pm

It was pretty obvious to me that all of this was coming 18 months ago - so I:

- Sold my expensive home before the real crunch hit

- Moved away from California for a much lower cost of living

- Picked a state with a strong economy, lower taxes and no deficit

- Bought a new, much lower cost home

- Paid off my cars (well sold one and bought a cheaper used one)

- Got rid of ALL forms of credit cards except one Visa - zero balance

Now I can almost afford to weather the storm(s) - since I lost my job - because I'm not trying to live beyond my means. If I don't have the cash to buy it, it doesn't get bought.

Health insurance is my single largest payment, but I can pay now - I couldn't have before.

IMHO, it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Get ready for very serious inflation during Q1 of next year. All of the pieces of the formula are there. Batten down the hatches.

Marc

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #10 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 7:59pm

Marc I am glad that you are in that position.

We have done much of the same,
we have no credit cards, cars are paid off etc. but the fact remains very few Americans are in that position and they are looking for the GOVERNMENT to save them. When the government steps in to save them it will take a lot of Innocent hard working people down with them.

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Marc Ex Member Gender:	Re: House bill would make health care a right Reply #11 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 8:25pm Yep - no doubt about it. That is part of what will drive the upcoming problems.
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Charlie

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #12 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 11:22pm

Quote:

Senate Bill fines people/U.S. citizens‏

Stuff like this isn't going to survive. On the other hand, Congressmen love government health insurance and it does a bangup job not "rationing" or denying anything to them. The Capitol has an on site doctor too that seems happy getting his income from the feds and of course Medicare's administrative costs are about 3% while some insurance companies approach 20%. There will be no rationing like there is now. There is nothing BUT rationing by big insurance companies that hire people to do nothing but arrange to kill people through denying claims by patients....excuse me...."consumers" that are bad for the bottom line. Many us older boomers will finally do the right thing. Someday we may even catch up to the rest of the civilized world.

The GOP hates this too because if it gets through, they'll be stuck with it like Social Security. Every time they decide to argue about it after the fact, Democrats can always tell voters that the GOP wants to take away your health care.

Scaring the shit out of voters about the horrors of socialized medicine goes back to the early 20th century. We'll live, kids.

Charlie

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #13 - Jul 15^th, 2009 at 11:49pm

Batch wrote on Jul 15^th, 2009 at 3:11pm:

Health Care is NOT a RIGHT!... It's not in the Constitution... Nor is it in the Bill of Rights!

Batch ...

what does the Ninth Amendment to the US Constitution say? "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." Therefore, according to the Constitution, the fact a right is not spelled out in the Constitution does not mean that right does not exist! Your attempts to use the Constitution to 'prove' that a right does not exist is antithetical to the Constitution!

Of course, the ninth amendment is quite vague ... it really leaves such unenumerated things up to society, and the notion of 'rights' changes with the times. If we decide to, we can recognize the right of women to vote or own property - I know it wasn't that way back in the day of Washington and Jefferson, I know conservatives are quite opposed to this change (isn't that what conservatives do, try to keep things the way they are?) ... but society can recognize rights that were not recognized in the past.

I'm also curious - why didn't you capitalize the part in the preamble about the role of government to PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE?? Regardless of whether one sees health care as a right or not, I certainly think it is in the interest of the general welfare to create a public option, a medicare-like system that is open to all. For the past 50 years, Republicans have done a good job of blocking meaningful health care reform ... if your side fails to do so this year, at least you can say you had a good run.

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Kilroy 2.0

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #14 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 1:00am

"the part in the preamble about the role of government to PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE."

If I get find for not having Insurance - I think that is over and above PROMOTION of general welfare!

It sucks - right now according to the government I have to much money to get any help from the government, but they will fix that soon enough I guess. Tongue

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Kirk

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #15 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 8:34am

The Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid system has 75+ Trillion Dollers (USD) in unsecured debt, and climbing. Now the people responsible for all of this mess. Come to me and say, "The health care system is broken, let us fix it." And I hear people who think they are smart like Monty and Charlie wanting to let them do it. Face it you guys, the clowns in DC are a bunch of fuck ups, and you don't want them running a kool-Aid Stand. Health care may be broken, but I sure as hell don't want THEM trying to fix it. Their track record speaks for itself, everything they touch turns to crap. Government can't do anything for you, unless it does something to you.

Smiley

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monty

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #16 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 8:55am

Kilroy 2.0 wrote on Jul 16^th, 2009 at 1:00am:

"the part in the preamble about the role of government to PROMOTE THE GENERAL WELFARE."

If I get find for not having Insurance - I think that is over and above PROMOTION of general welfare!

Well, that requirement that everyone must try to cover themselves with medical insurance (instead of going to a hospital without insurance, getting services, and then not having a way to pay) is one idea - it isn't clear if that will be made law, or if some other program will be passed.

As far as I know, Every state requires drivers to have auto insurance or get fined (or jailed). That does promote the general welfare.

Quote:

The Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid system has 75+ Trillion Dollers (USD) in unsecured debt, and climbing. ... Face it you guys, the clowns in DC are a bunch of fuck ups

We spend 15% of our national income on health care. Other countries spend half that, cover everyone, and have better health outcomes. There is a potential to make things better.

You are right that the politicians could botch it - one way to do that is to try to please everyone (especially the insurance lobbyists). A 'compromise' that tries to do everything (but which does nothing well) is a possibility given our political system and entrenched special interests.

« Last Edit: Jul 16^th, 2009 at 8:56am by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #17 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:33am

It is impossible to legislate a fair health care system without rewarding the truly undeserving.

Imagine a $500k cancer treatment regimen, with a 40% success rate.
Using the following uninsured patients below, who should the federal government cough up OUR $500k in an attempt to save?

A - A 5 year old, the 7th child of a family with a combined yearly income of $25,000.

B - An 86 year old nursing home patient.

C - A 45 year old father of 2 who is uninsured, but enjoys a very high standard of living (late model Mercedes, $1.5m home, $1m vacation home) and has a negative net worth (no money or assets to fund the treatment)

D - A 26 year old crack ho, single mother of 1, with 45+ convictions for prostitution, drug possession, drug dealing, theft, assault, etc, household income of $25,000.

E - A 26 year old woman, single mother of 1, lives in the projects, household income of $25,000.

Assuming the government answer would be 'yes, yes, yes, yes, yes', my choice would be (without stating the reasons):
A - no
B - no
C - no
D - no
E - yes

« Last Edit: Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:43am by Lobster »

Rock beats Scissors.

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Brew

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #18 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:44am

Quote:

You are right that the politicians could botch it - one way to do that is to try to please everyone (especially the insurance lobbyists). A 'compromise' that tries to do everything (but which does nothing well) is a possibility given our political system and entrenched special interests.

The optimism that thrives when it comes to government making things better just astounds me.

This is like a guy (the American people) in a bar who spot a gorgeous woman (the promise of Affordable Health Care For All) on the dance floor. The guy just HAS to have her. He gets up the courage and asks her to dance. He holds her close, they exchange conversation. He finds that she smells really bad, has halitosis, and through their conversation, finds out that she is a total nut job.

He wanted her sooooo bad when he was sitting at the bar, but up close, once the chance to get lucky was real, not so much.

The government WILL fuck this up, just like they fuck everything else up. Betting people bet streaks, and the US government is on a real 80+ year streak.

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

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monty

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #19 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:23am

Brew wrote on Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:44am:

LOL - you forgot to describe the current 'babe' of a health insurance system we have.

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The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: House bill would make health care a right Reply #20 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:32am Didn't forget anything. We all know what we have. For a select few, the stinky, goofy-assed babe with bad breath is better than what they have now (their right hand). Maybe that should be the administration's slogan on health care: A stinky, goofy-assed babe with bad breath in every bed!
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jon019

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #21 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:39am

Brew wrote on Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:44am:

[quote]

He wanted her sooooo bad when he was sitting at the bar, but up close, once the chance to get lucky was real, not so much.

Geez Brew, you had me all set up for the Crocodile Dundee reference...remember? dive bar, good looking sheila...who it turns out is a hela Shocked

The LARGE print giveth....and the small print taketh away. Tom Waits

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Brew

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #22 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:57am

jon019 wrote on Jul 16^th, 2009 at 11:39am:

Brew wrote on Jul 16^th, 2009 at 10:44am:

[quote]

He wanted her sooooo bad when he was sitting at the bar, but up close, once the chance to get lucky was real, not so much.

Geez Brew, you had me all set up for the Crocodile Dundee reference...remember? dive bar, good looking sheila...who it turns out is a hela Shocked

Sorry, dude. Never saw it. But it sounds pretty close.

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

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Brew

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #23 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 4:43pm

Now we KNOW we should just stop fighting and let the good doctors stick it in:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The influential American Medical Association on Thursday said it supported the healthcare overhaul legislation moving through committees in the Democratic-led House of Representatives and urged its approval.

"This legislation includes a broad range of provisions that are key to effective, comprehensive health system reform," AMA executive vice president Michael Maves wrote to the House committee leaders.

In particular, he said, the doctors' group backs the insurance market reforms that seek to expand healthcare coverage and the proposed health insurance exchange. In this exchange consumers would choose between private insurers and a public plan.

(excerpted)

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

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Batch

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Re: House bill would make health care a right
Reply #24 - Jul 16^th, 2009 at 7:40pm

Brew, Kirk,

Right On, Right On, Right On... As JoHny would say...."Keep on Truckin" Eddie Kendricks would luv it too!

And Monty, Sorry, but that dog won't hunt! I am glad you took the bait once again... I was mildly wary I'd made a useless cast with bad bait... Fortunately, you didn't disappoint me...

Your beloved social progressive idiots in the politburo have screwed the pooch with obamacare and no amount of Constitutional razzel dazzel is going to make this pant load of messy depends go away...

It's hilarious watching the social progressive idiots trying to tie a ribbon on this piece of a dog turd called "affordable health care" and pass it off as "Must Have" legislation to the peoples republic... just like the Porkulus.

These idiots are so into themselves and their hopey changey thing, they would suck a hickey on a hemmi if they though they could con the unsuspecting public to lay off their elected Congressional idiots long enough for them to pass this POS.

Unfortunately there's not enough Preparation-H to go around...

The "affordable health care" POS is little more than a bunco game from the 50s. Sgt. Joe Friday and Officer Gannon on the TV show "Dragnet", would have jumped ugly on these perps. Had they done this back then, Sgt. Friday (Jack Webb) and Officer Gannon (Harry Morgan) would have tossed them in the slammer so fast they would still be mumbling their useless mantras to themselves like the harechrishnas that used to befuddle travelers at LAX, doing their "ching - ch - ch - ching" thing in their saffron robes through the terminal!

"Just the facts, ma'am" is something the idiot princess Pelosi cannot deliver...

As to the "Vagueness" as inferred by our founding fathers in the Constitution... they were smart enough to assume rational people would eventually screw themselves if given the opportunity to do so... Accordingly, they saw fit to make amendments to the Constitution understandably difficult. What they didn't perceive was a class of people who would call themselves "Americans" yet who would try to destroy the very country that gave them freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...

Take care... and if you've not faxed, emailed, or called your Congressional representatives to tell them how you feel about health care reform... BOHICA!

V/T, Batch

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