Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
Clusterheadaches.com
 
Search box updated Dec 3, 2011... Search ch.com with Google!
  HomeHelpSearchLoginRegisterEvent CalendarBirthday List  
 





Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 
Send Topic Print
The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care (Read 11789 times)
Shawn
Ex Member



Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #100 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 3:27pm
 
Yeah, this guy sounds completely insane...

"To my fellow thoughful-folks: let's stop calling names, overgeneralizing and putting blame on our favorite demons, whether they are left or right. What we must do is renew our commitment to the Constitution. Primary power is with the people and the states. The role of the federal government is protection of rights, not the bestowal of largesse."

Consistently impervious to reason, as usual.

Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Kevin_M
CH.com Sponsor
***
Offline


withered branches grow
green again.


Posts: 8754
Michigan, USA
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #101 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 4:18pm
 
Quote:
let's stop calling names, overgeneralizing and putting blame on our favorite demons,


I think that word posted the other day was, projection.



"out-goof Rush",  still got it, Charlie.     Grin


I found another guy named Charlie, got some golden oldies, too.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register








Always hitting one into the crotch of contention, huh Bob.

Shut up, Bob.       Wink
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 10th, 2009 at 5:09pm by Kevin_M »  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #102 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 4:56pm
 
Shawn wrote on Aug 10th, 2009 at 3:27pm:
Yeah, this guy sounds completely insane...

"To my fellow thoughful-folks: let's stop calling names, overgeneralizing and putting blame on our favorite demons, whether they are left or right. What we must do is renew our commitment to the Constitution. Primary power is with the people and the states. The role of the federal government is protection of rights, not the bestowal of largesse."

Consistently impervious to reason, as usual.




What is insane is that the 'call to civility' comes at the end of a rant that was laden with insults and distortions. 
Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Shawn
Ex Member



Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #103 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 5:22pm
 
LOL, quoting me won't make me un-ignore you Monty.   Cheesy

Whatever you said, I'm sure it was great stuff though.

-Shawn
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #104 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 5:48pm
 
Shawn wrote on Aug 10th, 2009 at 5:22pm:
LOL, quoting me won't make me un-ignore you Monty.   Cheesy

Whatever you said, I'm sure it was great stuff though.

-Shawn


Thanks for responding.  Cheesy

Reminds me a bit of the old comedy bit where the family is sitting down for a meal, and the father turns to one of the kids, and says "Tell your mother that the soup needs salt."  After the kid tells that to the mother, the mother says "Tell your father that the soup is fine the way it is, and that too much salt is bad for him."  

I don't care if you have me on ignore...  I reserve the option of responding to any post I choose - you can't protect your posts from disagreement by telling me that you aren't going to read what I write ... other people will.  I know that ostriches  don't really bury their head in the sand, but for some reason, I keep having visions of an ostrich.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 10th, 2009 at 5:50pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Happy to be here


Posts: 18971
Jamestown, NY
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #105 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 8:55pm
 
August 10, 2009

A Primer on the Details of Health Care Reform

By ROBERT PEAR and DAVID M. HERSZENHORN

WASHINGTON — With the debate over the future of health care now shifted from Capitol Hill to town halls, supporters and critics of the Democrats’ legislative proposals are polishing their sound bites and sharpening their attack lines.

Increasingly, the battle looks like a presidential contest, with expensive advertising campaigns and Internet-driven efforts to mobilize local support. It can be difficult to sort fact from fiction, as angry protesters denounce the legislation at raucous public forums.

President Obama and his Democratic allies in Congress have made the health care overhaul their top priority, putting their political futures on the line. Democrats had hoped to spend the month whipping up support for the legislation, but instead find themselves on the defensive, responding to what Mr. Obama describes as “outlandish rumors” spread by critics.

Many Republicans view fighting the president as a smart political strategy, turning a potentially wonkish debate over Medicare reimbursement rates and subsidies for the uninsured into an ideological battle over the government’s role in health care.

Each side hopes to win ground by boiling down one of the most complex policy discussions in history into digestible nuggets. For beachside viewers who might be more interested in iced-tea service than fee-for-service, here is a guide to the main fight points.

KEEP IT OR LOSE IT?

Mr. Obama has said repeatedly, as he told the American Medical Association in June: “If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor, period. If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan, period. No one will take it away, no matter what.”

These assurances reflect an aspiration, but may not be literally true or enforceable.

The legislation does not require insurers or employers to continue offering the health benefits they now provide. The House bill sets detailed standards for “acceptable health care coverage,” which would define “essential benefits” and permissible co-payments. Employers that already offer insurance would have five years to bring their plans into compliance with the new federal standards.

The Senate health committee bill goes somewhat further by offering an “option to retain current insurance coverage.”

The legislation could have significant implications for individuals who have bought coverage on their own. Their policies might be exempted from the new standards, but the coverage might not be viable for long because insurers could not add benefits or enroll additional people in noncompliant policies.

Dallas L. Salisbury, president of the Employee Benefit Research Institute, a private nonpartisan group, said: “The president and Democrats in Congress are saying what they would like. Their promises may not be literally true because your health plan may change, and your doctor may no longer accept your insurance.”

SOCIALIZED MEDICINE

Or Uniquely American?

Republicans harshly criticize Democratic proposals to create a government-run insurance plan, or public option, to compete with private insurers. Republicans say the public plan would drive insurers out of business and lead to “socialized medicine” or a government takeover of health care. Democrats say they want a “uniquely American” system with public and private elements.

For now, the Republican criticism seems overblown. Major versions of the legislation all rely heavily on a continuation of private health plans, offered by employers and by insurance companies, subject to sweeping new federal regulations.

Whether a public plan would crowd out private insurers depends on details yet to be decided, including its premiums and its payment rates for health care providers.

The public plan is not even a certainty. To win bipartisan support for the overhaul, some Democrats have proposed private nonprofit health care cooperatives, instead of a public plan, to compete with private insurers.

The Congressional Budget Office has estimated that, under the House bill, the number of people with employer-sponsored insurance would climb to 162 million in 2016, which is 3 million more than expected under current law. Further, it said, enrollment in the proposed public plan might total 11 million, far lower than estimates cited by Republicans.

An additional 10 million people, most of them now uninsured, would enroll in Medicaid, the budget office said.

At any rate, the federal government already holds sway over the health care system through Medicare, Medicaid and various insurance programs for children, veterans, military personnel and other federal employees. The federal government will account for 35 percent of the expected $2.5 trillion in health spending this year, and that does not include subsidies built into the tax code.

BLAMING INSURERS

Or Ensuring Blame?

Democrats have unleashed a blistering attack on private health insurers as they try to convince the vast majority of Americans who already have coverage that the current system is tilted in favor of corporate profits, not patients, and that insurers are a main obstacle to passing legislation.

Insurers say they support some of the most important Democratic proposals, including a ban on denying coverage or charging higher premiums based on pre-existing medical conditions.

The insurance industry does oppose a government-run insurance plan and could eventually mobilize against the overhaul. But insurers appear to be less of an obstacle than public apprehension over such sweeping change and skittishness among lawmakers, including centrist Democrats from Republican-leaning districts.

Most Americans do not know the full cost of their employer-sponsored insurance. And it is easier for Democrats to paint insurers as greedy than to explain the complex math that shows current health care spending is unsustainable.

DEFICIT-NEUTRAL

Or Budget-Buster?

Mr. Obama has avoided dictating specific provisions of health care legislation. But he has insisted that the bill not add to the federal debt, leading Democrats to say that the overhaul will be “deficit neutral,” with the roughly $1 trillion, 10-year cost to be offset by reduced spending or new taxes.

The Congressional Budget Office has yet to issue cost estimates for the latest versions of the bill approved by three House committees. But it has warned that the legislation “would probably generate substantial increases in federal budget deficits” beyond 2019, in part because health costs are rising faster than the rate of inflation and proposed new taxes would not keep up.

Republicans use those warnings to cast doubt on the claim by Mr. Obama that the legislation will “bend the cost curve” by slowing the growth of health spending in the long term. Democrats say the overhaul will lead to savings that cannot be calculated under budgeting rules. At this point, it is difficult to know who is right.

Over the next 10 years, the budget office said, the House bill would “result in a net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion,” partly because of an increase in Medicare spending to avert sharp cuts in payments to doctors scheduled to occur under existing law.

House Democrats say the higher doctor payments should not count in the cost because they fix a problem that predates the Obama administration and Democratic control of Congress.

EUTHANASIA

And Abortion

Conservative critics say the legislation could limit end-of-life care and even encourage euthanasia. Moreover, some assert, it would require people to draw up plans saying how they want to die.

These concerns appear to be unfounded. AARP, the lobby for older Americans, says, “The rumors out there are flat-out lies.”

The House bill would provide Medicare coverage for optional consultations with doctors who advise patients on life-sustaining treatment and “end-of-life services,” including hospice care.

The legislation instructs Medicare officials to propose ways to measure the quality of end-of-life care. Doctors would have financial incentives to report data on such care to the government.

On abortion, the situation is more complex. Opponents of abortion, like the National Right to Life Committee, say the legislation would use tax dollars to subsidize insurance that could cover abortion.

Under a bill approved by the House Energy and Commerce Committee, health plans, including the new government insurance plan, could choose to cover abortion. But they generally could not use federal money to pay for the procedure and instead would have to use money from the premiums paid by beneficiaries.

Douglas D. Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, said, “Under either the Senate bill or the House bill, the federal government would run a huge system of subsidizing elective abortion.”

Representative Diana DeGette, Democrat of Colorado, said the bill would keep current restrictions on the use of federal money for abortion, but “would not expand the prohibitions, as many Republicans want to do.”

CUTTING MEDICARE

Or Preserving It?

To help finance coverage for the uninsured, Congress would squeeze huge savings out of Medicare, the program for older Americans and the disabled. These savings would pay nearly 40 percent of the bills’ cost.

The legislation would trim Medicare payments for most services, as an incentive for hospitals and other health care providers to become more efficient. The providers make a plausible case that the cutbacks could inadvertently reduce beneficiaries’ access to some types of care.

The Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, said Democrats would make “massive cuts to Medicare to pay for more government-run health care.”

Mr. Obama told AARP last month, “Nobody is talking about reducing Medicare benefits.” All the savings, he said, would come from measures to “eliminate waste and inefficiency in Medicare.” As an example, he cited duplicative tests ordered by different doctors for the same patient.

But some proposals could affect beneficiaries. The major bills in Congress would cut more than $150 billion over 10 years from federal payments to private health plans that care for more than 10 million Medicare beneficiaries.

(I can make long posts too Batch and not from blogs in which you approve)

Just something to ponder kids.

(I promise not to do it again folks)

Charlie


Back to top
  

There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
135447360 mondocharlie mondocharlie  
IP Logged
 
Marc
Ex Member
****




Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #106 - Aug 10th, 2009 at 10:02pm
 
Charlie,

Read the bill and tell me what you find. It ain't that hard.

I'm close to half way through it and I see a decided "slant in interpretation" in the piece you quoted.



Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Happy to be here


Posts: 18971
Jamestown, NY
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #107 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 8:50am
 
Marc:

Of course there is a "slant" but at least it comes from people living in our universe. Are you trying to say with a straight face that the blather you read isn't slanted? Dick Armey approved slants are the only ones allowed I guess. This is something not dependent on blogs from people trying to kill the bill and just as importantly, to them: Make it "Obama's Waterloo."

I'm sorry that it isn't as much fun as reading blogs calling people communists, socialists, fascists, nazis legislating from the Reich Chancellory, or people out to delete our grandparents through euthanasia. It's not like reading bloggers and the like that know that the way to keep their audience is to be as immature as possible and appeal to worst of our behavior. Their audiences are very susceptible to it.

Have your fun now. I have no plans to defend something that isn't a wacko polemic and therefore it needs no defending. You see, the difference between right and left wing reporting is that the left at least admits that there are others with different views without saying that they are the anti-Christ, or even worse: socialists out to destroy the American way of life.

Stop the have you read the bill BS. That Obama doesn't know what's in the thing is untrue and something that the noisy right uses to try to change the debate by trying to force the left to defend itself. It works a lot of the time too but not forever.

Charlie
Back to top
  

There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
135447360 mondocharlie mondocharlie  
IP Logged
 
Marc
Ex Member
****




Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #108 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:05am
 
I simply recommended reading the bill to form our own opinions on its content.

From where I sit, it would appear that there are many, many half-truths floating around. From my perspective, half-truths are the same as lies.

So it seems like common sense to read it for myself. Do you disagree with that idea?
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Happy to be here


Posts: 18971
Jamestown, NY
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #109 - Aug 11th, 2009 at 9:15am
 
Quote:
From where I sit, it would appear that there are many, many half-truths floating around.


Trurer words were never spoken.

Charlie
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2009 at 6:03pm by Charlie »  

There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
135447360 mondocharlie mondocharlie  
IP Logged
 
Shawn
Ex Member



Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #110 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:56am
 
Here's an opinion from an Obama supporter... from a decidely left-leaning site, Salon.com

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

I'm impressed
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
deltadarlin
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


I love YaBB 1G - SP1!


Posts: 3823
Downsville LA
Gender: female
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #111 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 8:45am
 
Shawn wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:56am:
Here's an opinion from an Obama supporter... from a decidely left-leaning site, Salon.com

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

I'm impressed



She makes a lot of sense in her arguments.
Back to top
  

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
 
IP Logged
 
MJ
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1205
x1||USA|usa|299|85|MN
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #112 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 10:24am
 
Amazing!!!!!

I just read this thread (minus the links) and am astounded at the levels of disinformation given and accepted by many otherwise intelligent sounding people as gospel.

Bottom line is we need health care in America. People, perhaps your own brothers and sisters are dying because they cant afford private insurance.
Do just a few only really deserve health care?
How many of you against it have private insurance? How many not posting here have no insurance at all? How many are allready accepting insurance covered by taxpayers, ie; military, medicare, medicaid, UAW, etc... What makes you so special and able to bitch about others getting the same care. After all I am paying your way. Perhaps we should cancel your benefits.

Why not just put everyone who cant afford insurance to sleep? F... em we dont need them anyways, we can do our own work, build our own houses, mow our own lawns, repair our own vehicles, put new tires on ourselves. If our children cant afford it after college go ahead and shoot them they cant get jobs anyways.
Thats what I am getting out of some of the input on the streets and here.

How in the world does this equate to political views? The choice seems to be help your bretheren live or not. Hitler just killed the unworthy off.

I have been fortunate to be able to afford limited insurance and additional care for my family, but many others cannot. As I stated once before my annual family health care costs exceed 30K. So what if we all have to pay 10k a year, I quarantee your employers or tax paying brethren are probably exceeding that cost for each and everyone of you that have been hospitalized at any time. or been to the doctors more than 4 times a yaer. The hourly cost to employers averages around 7.50 cents for basic health benefits and they quite often do not cover the deductibles that can reach into the thousands.

If you can afford it go ahead and buy extra insurance, whats the big deal. But dont deny the folks who are struggling to get by working 50/60 hours a week.


This whole debacle stinks of people like Karl Rove driving an agenda of fear.
The you cant be christian et.al:.. mentality of those that didnt vote for Bush.

Watching the ignorance on the news shows is amazing. People lining up to protest with signs about killing the elderly, euthanasia, disrupting potentially informative meetings with the behaviour of 2 year olds, whatever. I cant believe it.

Give our citizens that cannot afford an extra thousand a month averaged out across families and individuals some basic insurance against catastrophic illness, take care of the children as needed and allow the elderly a little better care. The rest of the advanced worlds countries can provide why shouldnt we?
Illegals can go home for care.
Sure some of that will be wasted money but no worse and probably less than the multiples of billions it costs you now through the costs we employers pass onto you in product pricing. Anyone noticed the price of foods lately. It isnt the production costs but largely the insurance costs built in.

We as a people after all provide k-12 education, roads to drive on, social security to survive on in later years. Why not just do away with those programs as well?

Thats my opinion.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 10:30am by MJ »  

MJ
 
IP Logged
 
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Happy to be here


Posts: 18971
Jamestown, NY
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #113 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 10:29am
 
I have to say that her stuff is worth a looksee in any case. It has some thought and history behind it.

Does anyone besides me remember her tv interviews over the years? They hit home as she's the only political junkie that talks as fast as I do.  

Motormouth Charlie
 Shocked
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:45pm by Charlie »  

There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
135447360 mondocharlie mondocharlie  
IP Logged
 
Melissa
CH.com Moderator
CH.com Alumnus
*****
Offline


Don't give up!


Posts: 7238
Central WI, USA
Gender: female
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #114 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 10:46am
 
MJ- I don't think it's not wanting people to be covered by some sort of insurance, it's more along the lines of HOW to get there.

JMO

Back to top
  

Diseases can be our spiritual flat tires - disruptions in our lives that seem to be disasters at the time but end by redirecting our lives in a meaningful way.  ~Bernie S. Siegel
https://www.facebook.com/mellymoo92  
IP Logged
 
Shawn
Ex Member



Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #115 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 1:18pm
 
MJ wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 10:24am:
Bottom line is we need health care in America.


Nobody is disputing that.

Quote:
Do just a few only really deserve health care?


Even if you believe the blatant lie that 47 million people are not covered, that means about 250 million people are covered.  How is that a few?


Quote:
How in the world does this equate to political views? The choice seems to be help your bretheren live or not. Hitler just killed the unworthy off.


Once again proving that any political discussion will devolve to the point where someone will bring up Hitler or Nazis...


Quote:
If you can afford it go ahead and buy extra insurance, whats the big deal. But dont deny the folks who are struggling to get by working 50/60 hours a week.


To rephrase, "You are a heartless bastard if you won't pay for all the people who can't afford it".  Have you been reading Saul Alinsky?  This is an intellectually deceptive and manipulative argument.


Quote:
This whole debacle stinks of people like Karl Rove driving an agenda of fear.
The you cant be christian et.al:.. mentality of those that didnt vote for Bush.


Mandatory Bush reference.  Required in any response to any resistance to Hope and Change.

Quote:
Give our citizens that cannot afford an extra thousand a month averaged out across families and individuals some basic insurance against catastrophic illness, take care of the children as needed and allow the elderly a little better care. The rest of the advanced worlds countries can provide why shouldnt we?


And there it is...  so, let's look at what your proposing.  If you take the supposed 47 million people and give them all $1000 a month for insurance, you are talking about $47 Billion per month out of the pockets of 'everybody else', which really means out of the pockets of the people who pay taxes. Since we know that only 5% of taxpayers foot 60% of the bill for the rest of the country, this equates to:

($47 billion * 12 months) = $564 Billion per year

There were about 139 million individual tax returns in 2007
5% of that number is almost 7 million taxpayers, who paid over 60% of all federal income tax in America in 2007.

60% of that $564 billion = $338 billion. Spread that across the 7 million people who actually pay it, and you're proposing that these disgusting rich people pay an average $48,285 extra per year in taxes to provide health care universally.

Yeah, nothing wrong with that!

Can you not see why this is a political issue?

Quote:
Illegals can go home for care.


Except, they don't and won't.  Why would they?



-Shawn

Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #116 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:14pm
 
Shawn wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 1:18pm:
Even if you believe the blatant lie that 47 million people are not covered, that means about 250 million people are covered.  How is that a few?


The Census Bureau seems to believe the figure is very close to 47 million people ... do you think that President Bush ordered them to inflate the number?  Did Obama go back in time to hire ACORN to collect and process the data? Or maybe it isn't a blatant lie, as you charge??

Quote:
Income Climbs, Poverty Stabilizes, Uninsured Rate Increases

    Real median household income in the United States rose by 1.1 percent between 2004 and 2005, reaching $46,326, according to a report released today by the U.S. Census Bureau. Meanwhile, the nation’s official poverty rate remained statistically unchanged at 12.6 percent. The percentage of people without health insurance coverage rose from 15.6 percent to 15.9 percent (46.6 million people).

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register


And that doesn't count the number of people that think they are insured ... they are making payments each month, and won't find out that the treatment they need isn't covered until they actually need it.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:18pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Shawn
Ex Member



Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #117 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 2:44pm
 
I said, even IF you believe the number.

The fact is, that 47 million number includes all of the illegal aliens, and millions of people who can afford insurance but choose not to buy it.  The number also includes millions of people who are only without insurance for 3-4 months.

The number is a lie, and you can look at the real number from the census bureau to prove it.  It is a blatant lie that exaggerates the scope of the problem.

Are there millions of people who cannot afford insurance? OF COURSE THERE IS.  But destroying our health care system is not going to help anybody, anywhere.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #118 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 3:33pm
 
Actually, it is not clear if that number contains all the illegal aliens.  Many Census Bureau products don't count illegals, or severely undercount them.  Looking through the CB docs,  the closest thing I found was this:

Quote:
Of all people, 87.8 percent were natives, 4.7 percent were foreign born naturalized citizens, and 7.4 percent were foreign-born non citizens


The foreign-born non citizen group includes tens of millions of people that are in the country legally ... over a million 'green cards' are issued each year.

You are right that the number includes millions of people that choose not to buy insurance (for whatever reason) ... most of these people will eventually end up using expensive services and walk away from the bills - leaving others to pick up the tab.  That is a problem that is probably going to remain unsolved.

Where does jon019 go under this classification?  How do we count people who 'have' insurance but get jerked around by the insurance company when they need something more than an annual physical exam?


Quote:
Doctors have historically been the watchdogs of the U.S. medical system, with the American Medical Association scaring New Dealers into dropping national health coverage from the Social Security Act and then the AMA shredding Harry Truman's reform efforts in the late 1940s. But a new poll and other significant indicators suggest that doctors are turning against the health-insurance firms that increasingly dominate American health care.

The latest sign is a poll published recently in the Annals of Internal Medicine showing that 59 percent of U.S. doctors support a "single payer" plan that essentially eliminates the central role of private insurers. Most industrial societies -- including nations as diverse as Taiwan, France, and Canada -- have adopted universal health systems that provide health care to all citizens and permit them free choice of their doctors and hospitals. These plans are typically funded by a mix of general tax revenues and payroll taxes, and essential health-care is administered by nonprofit government agencies rather than private insurers.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 3:37pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Shawn
Ex Member



Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #119 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 3:46pm
 
It doesn't matter if the number is 50 million or 20 million.  The point is the same.  You know the 47 million number is a lie, you said as much in your post. That just proves the disingenuousness of your position.
Back to top
  
 
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #120 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 4:52pm
 
Shawn wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 3:46pm:
It doesn't matter if the number is 50 million or 20 million.  The point is the same.  You know the 47 million number is a lie, you said as much in your post. That just proves the disingenuousness of your position.


No, I didn't say that, and no, it doesn't prove that. Not at all.  

The figure of 47 million is from a credible agency and it does make a starting point for discussion.   It is good to try to figure out exactly how it was arrived at, and what it means (and I have tried to be reasonable in doing that, conceding one point to your interpretation, not ceding another point where there is no information to support that view).

I don't think it is a blatant lie at all - I think it is an honest estimate ...  I would compare it to the unemployment rate ... do I think the official rate is 100% accurate, would I calculate things the same way if I was making my own index? No.  But the official statistic is calculated in a consistent way, and it does provide a basis for understanding the situation, even if that basis is not perfect.

Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2009 at 5:09pm by monty »  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Happy to be here


Posts: 18971
Jamestown, NY
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #121 - Aug 12th, 2009 at 6:09pm
 
Quote:
The number is a lie, and you can look at the real number from the census bureau to prove it.  It is a blatant lie that exaggerates the scope of the problem.


No it isn't. It's close and it's not something new. Records on the uninsured have been watched closely for decades. It goes up all the time as it's more and more unaffordable. The number those people that "choose not to buy," is more likely an inflated number because it's just not something even on the horizon for them. Teenagers think they are immortal and a lot of them never consider it.

The thing is that it's as much for our relatives and friends that either knowingly or not are underinsured and get stuck paying hundreds of thousands for two days in a heart facility or for cancer treatment. Prostate surgery can cost a fortune too depending on the procedure. These people shouldn't have to lose everything just to stay alive. At least some kind of help should be available to them like the rest of the world.

Everything is a lie that doesn't help topple Obama.....which is the real objectve. Health care is just the most convenient thing to use at the moment. More to come.

Charlie
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2009 at 9:06am by Charlie »  

There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
135447360 mondocharlie mondocharlie  
IP Logged
 
monty
CH.com Hall of Famer
*****
Offline




Posts: 1056
The Swamp, Florida
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #122 - Aug 14th, 2009 at 8:20am
 
Shawn wrote on Aug 12th, 2009 at 1:18pm:
Once again proving that any political discussion will devolve to the point where someone will bring up Hitler or Nazis...


You led with the Nazi comparison on the first page of this thread, Mr. Nunley, where you said:

Shawn wrote on Aug 5th, 2009 at 4:55pm:
BTW, you should be a good brown shirt now and report me to the White House as you have been ordered to do.  The address is flag@whitehouse.gov.  Be sure to spell my name right.  It is Shawn Nunley.

Back to top
  

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.
 
IP Logged
 
Charlie
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline


Happy to be here


Posts: 18971
Jamestown, NY
Gender: male
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #123 - Aug 14th, 2009 at 10:15am
 
If we're lucky, Monty, there will be a backlash against the GOP for the Nazi references. Dick Armey's little group and all the other public relations professionals that have been hired to kill the bill may have overdone the photoshopped Hitler references directly aimed at Obama. This may be their "Waterloo" if they keep it up.

While it certainly works for assembling the torch and pitchfork bearing town-brawlers, we are dealing with health care, not abortion or the 2nd Amendment. Health care is a different animal and has the support of lots of people on the right side of the aisle as well as a majority of the country.

Obama voters are solid and already steamed about this. They will want revenge. These kind of attacks may result in bucking the trend of off-year election gains by the minority.  

It may be the fine line that moderate GOP legislators have to walk on this issue that has kept them quiet. What is left doesn't look good on TV newscasts even though they do help advertise all the drugs that uninsured voters can't afford

Charlie
Back to top
  

There is nothing more satisfying than being shot at without result---Winston Churchill
135447360 mondocharlie mondocharlie  
IP Logged
 
Brew
CH.com Sponsor
CH.com Alumnus
***
Offline




Posts: 14163
Re: The Prez & Politburo Want Single Payer Health Care
Reply #124 - Aug 14th, 2009 at 10:31am
 
Obama voters are solid? Look again.

Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register
Back to top
  

"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so."  --Ayn Rand
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 5 6 
Send Topic Print

DISCLAIMER: All information contained on this web site is for informational purposes only.  It is in no way intended to be used as a replacement for professional medical treatment.   clusterheadaches.com makes no claims as to the scientific/clinical validity of the information on this site OR to that of the information linked to from this site.  All information taken from the internet should be discussed with a medical professional!