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Judicotswolds

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Acupuncture
Dec 14^th, 2009 at 7:10am

Hello everyone
not feeling too bad today (not got use to abbreviations etc., yet). Went to GP with other problem this am and after chat about CH and expressions of ouch! she began feeling my neck and then gave me acupuncture. Said if I feel relief to go back and they will give me a course to see if they can control CH that way! Has anyone else had any success with acupuncture?

Judi

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seaworthy CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Posts: 706	Re: Acupuncture Reply #1 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 7:31am Find a new Doc.
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Karla CH.com Alumnus Offline One of Many and Never Alone - Join OUCH Posts: 3837 x1\|Madison WI USA Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #2 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 9:44am no and run fast!
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Callico CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Author of "Stranded at Romson's Lodge Posts: 4916 Aurora IL Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #3 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 3:09pm Ditto what they said! Acupuncture may be good for some things, but CH is not one of them. It might help with some of the ancillary pain, but not enough to pay for. Jerry
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itotka CH.com Old Timer Offline Oxygen Posts: 465 Budapest\|Solar System Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #4 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 3:52pm Living human as voodoo doll???
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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #5 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 4:31pm Find a doctor who is a clinician, not one burning incense and sticking needles in patients. Good luck and let us know how things work out. Charlie
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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Acupuncture Reply #6 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 4:46pm Um, the Chinese have been practicing acupuncture for a few thousand years, and it's worked out pretty well for them. It may not do anything to treat CH, but let's be careful about casting aspersions on something that's got a pretty darned good track record for some other ailments.
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AlienSpaceGuy

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #7 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 6:03pm

... something that's got a pretty darned good track record ...

Pray tell me, who is keeping these track records (secret) ?

Like the other big health scam, homeopathy, the best one can say about acupuncture is: Since both don't effectuate anything in the body, they buy some time for the body to heal itself. For those believing in miracles there my be some placebo effect too.

There are no consistent, and double checked, "healing" results for neither of them. All we hear is about fortuitous correlations, the failures get conveniently swept under the carpet. Neither 200 nor 2000 years of wacky reasoning based on a shabby foundations prove anything.

Smiley

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jon019

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #8 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 9:48pm

AlienSpaceGuy wrote on Dec 14^th, 2009 at 6:03pm:

... something that's got a pretty darned good track record ...

Yup...agree there....

Pray tell me, who is keeping these track records (secret) ?

Don't know anyone more skeptical than me....if you are a clusterhead and you are not...then you are extremely lucky to have not experienced the woeful lack of care, concern, and knowledge displayed re ch....I'd suggest "google"...I did....it satisfied me.

Now then.....have I seen ANYTHING that would lead me to believe it helps ch....NOPE....but for some of my debilitating back issues....worked for ME. The neuro proposed shots and surgery...said he has had very good results. Sorry doc, cut on someone else....got anything else? "Well...some of my patients have had very good results with acupuncture...."

I asked...can you recommend one? Him..."Yes, Jim, he's right across the street". Blew my mind, a neuroSURGEON willing to recommend an acupuncturist. I went....as I said...worked for ME.

Like the other big health scam, homeopathy, the best one can say about acupuncture is: Since both don't effectuate anything in the body, they buy some time for the body to heal itself.

Not getting that argument...I don't care what kind of "treatment"...buy some time so my body can heal itself?...SIGN ME UP.

For those believing in miracles there my be some placebo effect too.

A large percentage of ANY medical treatment is due to "belief"....personally, I don't care a rats ass HOW it works...just that it does. The human mind is capable of so much more than we can even imagine...that I love imagining it!

As for acupuncture...the personal feeling of relaxation and well being have been immediate, profound, and unconnected to any placebo effect possible.

There are no consistent, and double checked, "healing" results for neither of them. All we hear is about fortuitous correlations, the failures get conveniently swept under the carpet. Neither 200 nor 2000 years of wacky reasoning based on a shabby foundations prove anything.

And "western" medicine is better?

Best,

Jon

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Linda_Howell

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #9 - Dec 14^th, 2009 at 11:22pm

I've been around site for a long time now. One of the many things I've heard and listened to is this:

People who have had healthy teeth pulled out from a dentist because that is HIS specialty. People who've gone to an eye doctor and HE/SHE said it was their eyes that were the problem. Ditto..ear/nose/throat specialists who assumed it was sinus related Because that is THEIR speciality.

Be educated. Know what you're dealing with with a GOOD doctor/Neurologist. But... do your homework before you go. It will save you so many many hours of useless drivel, time and money.

Moi

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AlienSpaceGuy

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #10 - Dec 15^th, 2009 at 12:16am

Jon, here're just a few of the achievements of '"western" medicine' in the last 150 years:
· About doubling the life-span by (almost) conquering the infectious diseases.
· Prevention of infections by vaccination.
· Advance in surgery: high success rate in intestine-, heart-, brain-, (... you name it) surgeries, while not too long ago a broken leg meant disabled for life or even death from tetanus caused by a filthy saw bone.
· Sound scientific foundations in pharmaceutical research against 2000 years outdated hogwash about "meridians" (that nobody has ever seen) that carry a "life energy" that has no place in quantum mechanics and that the most sophisticated instruments of today cannot measure.

Now, Jon, name some similar success stories brought by the traditional and 'natural' methods, whole classes, not just some un-repeatable chance results.

Our body has considerable self-healing capacity. As an example, a stomach upset usually disappears again in a few days, whether you some rub chicken shit on your belly or not. But waiting for the (effectless) chicken shit to do its trick, buys you some time for the self-healing to occur (before you try some more harmful quackery). Or as we say, an untreated cold lasts for a fortnight while lots of expensive nose sprays shorten it to 2 weeks.

If you want to rely in the placebo effect buy some boji stones, for a few $$ on ebay, much cheaper than the treatment of a quack.

Smiley

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Linda_Howell CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Do not feed the Moderators Posts: 11927 Santa Maria, Ca. Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #11 - Dec 15^th, 2009 at 12:36am OR, in other words... Quote: AlienSpaceGuy believes only in scientifically sound methods.
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jon019

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #12 - Dec 15^th, 2009 at 1:59am

AlienSpaceGuy wrote on Dec 15^th, 2009 at 12:16am:

Jon, here're just a few of the achievements of '"western" medicine' in the last 150 years:

Ummm...first of all..you got a first name? Just can't call you alien...

Delightful reply...got a genuine chuckle...and no, not being a smart-ass

"western" medicine is dang near a miracle....no argument...doesn't mean it is the be all end all...

· About doubling the life-span by (almost) conquering the infectious diseases.

That "almost" is the kicker...we have been so successful that we are now in danger of being trumped by the "mutants"....see MRSA, et al

· Prevention of infections by vaccination.

To argue against this is to pee into a hurricane and expect not to get wet. The letter below can make me suck in my breath and wonder at the honor that must be felt to receive such:

_

To Dr. Edward Jenner_
_Monticello, May 14, 1806_

SIR, -- I have received a copy of the evidence at large respecting the discovery of the vaccine inoculation which you have been pleased to send me, and for which I return you my thanks. Having been among the early converts, in this part of the globe, to its efficiency, I took an early part in recommending it to my countrymen. I avail myself of this occasion of rendering you a portion of the tribute of gratitude due to you from the whole human family. Medicine has never before produced any single improvement of such utility. Harvey's discovery of the circulation of the blood was a beautiful addition to our knowledge of the animal economy, but on a review of the practice of medicine before and since that epoch, I do
not see any great amelioration which has been derived from that discovery. You have erased from the calendar of human afflictions one of its greatest. Yours is the comfortable reflection that mankind can never forget that you have lived. Future nations will know by history only that the loathsome small-pox has existed and by you has been extirpated.

Accept my fervent wishes for your health and happiness and assurances of the greatest respect and consideration.

T. Jefferson

· Advance in surgery: high success rate in intestine-, heart-, brain-, (... you name it) surgeries, while not too long ago a broken leg meant disabled for life or even death from tetanus caused by a filthy saw bone.

Why does success in this negate success another way? I was offered surgery "almost" guaranteed to be successful...chose another way...EQUALLY succesful.

· Sound scientific foundations in pharmaceutical research against 2000 years outdated hogwash about "meridians" (that nobody has ever seen) that carry a "life energy" that has no place in quantum mechanics and that the most sophisticated instruments of today cannot measure.

Oh dear....I fear you have drunk the kool-aid of "pure" science without the tempering of "we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything" T. Edison ..... "Blessed are they who have not seen...yet believe"

...or Issac Newton who affirmed his accomplishments with "I stood on the shoulders of giants".

The pharma companies have sold their souls for the almighty dollar...where once it was altruism...now it is greed. While we clusterheads wait for something...anything....they pour millions into the next boner pill.

In the name of "modern" science the past is denigrated as useless and quaint. The Bayer company has made BILLIONS on a little pill called aspirin....while 2000 yrs ago all they had was willow bark...ooops, same thing.

Now, Jon, name some similar success stories brought by the traditional and 'natural' methods, whole classes, not just some un-repeatable chance results.

Hmmmm...2000 yrs and the human race is so dumb it failed to recognize acupuncture, for example, didn't work.....chance, unrepeatable? How the hell did we survive?

Our body has considerable self-healing capacity. As an example, a stomach upset usually disappears again in a few days, whether you some rub chicken shit on your belly or not. But waiting for the (effectless) chicken shit to do its trick, buys you some time for the self-healing to occur (before you try some more harmful quackery). Or as we say, an untreated cold lasts for a fortnight while lots of expensive nose sprays shorten it to 2 weeks.

Dang...I just heard that chicken shit and modern nose sprays are equally ineffective...not exactly an effective argument for either.

If you want to rely in the placebo effect buy some boji stones, for a few $$ on ebay, much cheaper than the treatment of a quack.

Sorry if I am boring you with this repetition...the human mind is more powerful than any drug ever was or ever will be....drug researchers know this and COUNT on the placebo effect for a BIG chunk (can't remember the %) my brother was one and affirms it as a precept.

Best,

Jon (and don't mistake me...science (oh, ok, it's a BS Cool

) degree here...and I LOVE science)

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Judicotswolds

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #13 - Dec 15^th, 2009 at 5:20am

Hello everyone

Thank you all for taking the time to post and most of them so thoughtful.

I am of the open mind variety. I have seen the effect of mind over matter many years ago in Australia, in a hospital ward when a young aboriginal girl who had had the bone pointed at her was sinking despite the fact that the Doctors could find nothing wrong with her. Equally, I will happily (desperately) take pills to relieve my own condition/pain and respect the training doctors and scientist undergo. The most effective help I have received for other conditions has been from open minded medics happy to try combinations. I have tried homeopathy and for me there have been no results, but a lot of care and support.
There are charlaton doctors and alternative therapists and I have seen them.
In this country the health service is free at the point of delivery so no $ or £. The GP I saw is the head of the practice and believe me the fact that she got out a needle took me by surprise. So I am not prepared to go along with a cynical view about voodoo or money making on her part. In the UK there seem to be a number of GPs who have undertaken this additional training and offer it free of charge to patients just in case it helps.

Now to me: It could be that I was coming to the end or a lull in the cycle of course, but that needle went in at about 10am yesterday. I have not needed to take a maltax have had only 2 paraetamol and 2 ibrufen, slept well and miraculously woken shadow and painfree. How the rest of the day progresses? we'll see. I will try anything that works. Last Wednesday/Thursday I was suicidal. Today I have a day off (in all senses) and will let my body recuperate.

I am an arts graduate (sociology/politics) so no science background - maybe I would be less open minded if I had had the brain for pure science.

I will keep you posted but assure you my feet are on the ground and I don't believe in miracles - mind over matter/suggestion now that's a whole different kettle of fish.

Judi

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Judicotswolds

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #14 - Dec 17^th, 2009 at 8:20am

Hello

Just want to report on my experience with the acupuncture.
GP stuck a needle in my neck on Monday. It is Thursday and I have not needed maxalt for 4/5 days. I am still in the cluster cycle - (can tell by the droopy eyelid and dilated pupil) but only pain seems to arrive at 3pm daily and is dealt with by proprietory pain killers.
Saw another GP today within the practice who has confirmed that neuro says they can prescribe oxygen whenever I want. Also their acupuncturist GP is willing to see me at any time. So, so far - result. I have also been drinking full caffeine coffee and cafeine drinks and just can't express the difference a week makes.
Seems to be working for me so far and lets face it, when faced with the pain of CH one will try anything!

Judi

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Stephanielewis

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #15 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 10:19am

First to answer the question on acupuncture I have tried it and it didn't work for me. Doesn't mean it doesn't work for some. I have co workers who do it for allergies and have not had to take meds since they had started it.

Now I have to make a comment to AlienSpaceGuy. This person just asked if someone has tried this with good results not what your beliefs are on it. We all will try anything to see if it will stop the clusters from coming. Also please go over your comments and do a fact check before you post and sound like an idiot.

These are your words:
Or as we say, an untreated cold lasts for a fortnight while lots of expensive nose sprays shorten it to 2 weeks.

A FORTNIGHT is 2 weeks!!!!!

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Dallas Denny 62 CH.com Old Timer Offline Semper Fi !!!! Posts: 295 Island Bayou Mushroom Farm Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #16 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 10:34am I thought that was the gist of his post....untreated a cold lasts for a fortnight (14 days) or, if you choose to treat it with expensive OTC meds it will only last 2 weeks (14 days)... DD
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Linda_Howell

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #17 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 10:34am

Quote:

do a fact check before you post and sound like an idiot.

Please lets not resort to disrespect and name-calling.

What Ueli is referring to in his fort-night/2 weeks comment is sarcastic irony. Or...in other words, expensive sprays won't do any better than just waiting it out. I've even heard doctors use this tongue-in-cheek expression many times.

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Jimi CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Don't feed the moderators Posts: 4925 Madisonville, KY Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #18 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 12:04pm Interesting first post Stephanielewis..............you come in and slam somebody. Tell us a little about yourself and lets start over.
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seasonalboomer CH.com Hall of Famer Offline CH messes with my isness Posts: 2517 Charlotte, NC Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #19 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 1:19pm I love sarcastic irony.
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Brew CH.com Sponsor CH.com Alumnus Offline Posts: 14163	Re: Acupuncture Reply #20 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 1:25pm seasonalboomer wrote on Jan 6^th, 2010 at 1:19pm: I love sarcastic irony. Especially when some don't get it. Gives the room that oh so uncomfortable feel.
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seaworthy CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Posts: 706	Re: Acupuncture Reply #21 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 6:46pm Quote: Now I have to make a comment to AlienSpaceGuy You didn't have to, you just wanted to. And missed the whole point on top of it.
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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #22 - Jan 6^th, 2010 at 8:32pm

I'm willing to give Stephanie (with one post)...the benefit of the doubt here. She obviously missed the point and has never heard of this anaolgy/ironic sarcasm/whatever we call it, even though this expression ahs been around for ages...So what do you say Stephanie? Want to start over on a better note???

This place, these people are the most caring, supportive folks in the world as far as I am concerned. We want to help anyone who needs it.

We're listening. How can we help you?

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Potter

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Re: Acupuncture
Reply #23 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 2:05pm

Stephanielewis wrote on Jan 6^th, 2010 at 10:19am:

First to answer the question on acupuncture I have tried it and it didn't work for me. Doesn't mean it doesn't work for some. I have co workers who do it for allergies and have not had to take meds since they had started it.

Now I have to make a comment to AlienSpaceGuy. This person just asked if someone has tried this with good results not what your beliefs are on it. We all will try anything to see if it will stop the clusters from coming. Also please go over your comments and do a fact check before you post and sound like an idiot.

These are your words:
Or as we say, an untreated cold lasts for a fortnight while lots of expensive nose sprays shorten it to 2 weeks.

A FORTNIGHT is 2 weeks!!!!!

Why take the time to join, make one scathing post and never return? Just wondering.

Potter

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maalstroom CH.com Old Timer Offline ''Dance to my tune''.... the hell I will! Posts: 491 the Netherlands Gender:	Re: Acupuncture Reply #24 - Jan 7^th, 2010 at 3:05pm Tried it in the late nineties, and though it may work for some stuff, it does nothing for CH.
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