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You science buffs gotta help me here. (Read 6426 times)

cavalier

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You science buffs gotta help me here.
Mar 12^th, 2010 at 7:37pm

There is this guy in Minnesota with a device to detect dark matter, but the problem being…
Dark matter passes through his machine and has for the last five years, without it being detected because you can’t detect dark matter with a dark matter detector?????????
Take a step back.
Creation with the big bang, inflation, dark matter and so on till the universe has begun and is still big banging now with…
“Dark energy” (that’s the new one.)
Cosmologists and mathematicians are spinning a web of how we began from nothing.
As they find problems to their theories they manufacture a new theory of nothing.

Nothing before the big bang… but it went bang.
It expanded with inflation … (That’s a word we’re all familiar with)
Dark matter appeared… but we can’t see it, detect it or really know its there.
Dark energy…to hold it all together or else dark matter wouldn’t work, (Even though we don’t know it’s there anyway).
Answer…
What on earth are they teaching our kids at school nowadays?
What’s wrong with a bit of corporate corruption (sounds familiar) Jobs going at a bank near you.
Sport or sex education you know the type, when you thought she wouldn’t get pregnant if you inhaled the cigarette and were standing up…
Those were the days eh!

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Linda_Howell CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Do not feed the Moderators Posts: 11927 Santa Maria, Ca. Gender:	Re: You science buffs gotta help me here. Reply #1 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 7:55pm Get back on that treadmill Colin. It'll clear your mind of such matters.
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Headache Boy uk CH.com Old Timer Offline Matthew ch 11 v 28 Posts: 373 Mersea Island nr Colchester Gender:	Re: You science buffs gotta help me here. Reply #2 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 8:41pm It's cos they are all scared of Genesis chapter 1
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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #3 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:02pm

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #4 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 7:42am

Quote:

in Minnesota with a device to detect dark matter,

Sounds like the Cryogenic Dark Matter Search (CDMS). 2400 ft under in the Soudan Mine in northeast MN, shielded and fractions of a degree above absolute zero so that detected movement would be due to an external force.

The Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS) has helped with a first composite portrait of a dark matter halo from galaxy gravitational lensing. With clusters, lensing has outlined the halos of dark matter.

Check: Bullet Cluster, Aug. 21, 2006.

The DoE, NASA, and NSF established a Dark Energy Task Force in 2005, with so far four general methods of tracking. Projects maybe 2014 and 15.

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #5 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 2:39pm

Gone are the days when advancing scientific theory meant that you had to first root it in some basis of substantiated fact.

Would not the same principals employed in advancing this theory be employable in advancing the theory of existence of a higher omnipotent being?

Does this qualify as the anti-science of scientific principal?

How much public green matter is absorbed in the dark matter every day?

Inquiring minds want to know.

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #6 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:41pm

It was noticed in 1933 by Fritz Zwicky in the Coma cluster, objects rotating at a speed exceeding the limits of gravity will escape the gravitatiional pull but do not, mass is missing. In a paper he simply coined the phrase (Ger.) dunkle materie, or dark matter. This phenomenon was also noticed in the Virgo cluster by Sinclair Smith, then all more or less ignored for 35 years.

Spinning around the Milky Way at about 1/2 million mph should have flung us out, which hasn't been explained away. Dark matter is simply yet to be discounted.

More recently gravitational lensing of clusters has appeared to use the mass and tried to outline it. Mysterious.

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #7 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 1:36am

Headache Boy uk wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 8:41pm:

It's cos they are all scared of Genesis chapter 1 Undecided

Undecided

If you take the Bible literally as a science text, you must believe that the Earth is fixed in space and cannot move, it is flat, has edges, and and has 4 corners. You must also believe that the sun orbits the Earth. Do you?

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Headache Boy uk

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #8 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 10:15pm

Quote:

If you take the Bible literally as a science text, you must believe that the Earth is fixed in space and cannot move, it is flat, has edges, and and has 4 corners. You must also believe that the sun orbits the Earth. Do you?

ain't none of that stuff in my Bible. except a reference to 4 corners , any way the Bible is more a reference on how to live our lives in a relationship with God not a set of rules to be taken literally, I can see my self getting in way over my head here not exactly a theologist .
wot i meant was maybe science is trying to go abit too deep and should just except what is.

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #9 - Mar 15^th, 2010 at 8:05am

Headache Boy uk wrote on Mar 14^th, 2010 at 10:15pm:

just except what is.

With normal matter only 5% and estimates like dark matter making up 23% of the universe and dark energy 72%, that leaves too much discovery unknown to be untried.

If challenging Newtonian gravity is looked at instead of dark matter, we've been pretty satisfied with it. Efforts of Modified Newtonian Dynamics has produced a model, but it's not a theory. Suggesting new physics must first satisfy all the existing data to be taken seriously, and make new predictions tested by experiment. Don't think it has.

Einstein's grand theory of gravity, general relativity, has also has been good to us. The right hand side describes the matter and energy of the universe, the left-hand side depends on gravity. Either a new kind of energy would change the right hand side of the equation, or a new formulation of gravity, the left. Geometry beyond me.

The Cassini probe sent to Saturn tested general relativity with very accurate results. Apollo missions 11, 14, and 15 put mirrors on the Moon to reflect a laser beam back, measuring the distance to the Moon to within 1mm to trace the orbit in detail. It has beautifully agreed with general relativity, but G/R will be challenged, three projects planned.

In the search for dark matter though -- a photon of light will follow the path defined in which matter warps spacetime. An outline of the path of light going around dark matter can be documented in gravitational lensing surveys, but the lens itself, what is warping spacetime, is invisible. So the influence can be seen and outlining the paths of light gives a tracing of something there, but not what it is.

It's a hard one to just leave at that, I'd give it time.

It might seem, dark matter cannot be explained by modifications of our theory of gravity.

Quote:

getting in way over my head here

me too

Wink

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monty

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #10 - Mar 15^th, 2010 at 12:59pm

Headache Boy uk wrote on Mar 14^th, 2010 at 10:15pm:

ain't none of that stuff in my Bible. except a reference to 4 corners ,

Yes, it's there. The idea of spherical earth that revolves on its axis and orbits the sun is incompatible with a literal reading of the Bible, and it is why the Church opposed Copernicus and Galileo.

Headache Boy uk wrote on Mar 14^th, 2010 at 10:15pm:

any way the Bible is more a reference on how to live our lives in a relationship with God not a set of rules to be taken literally,

We agree on that.

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Headache Boy uk

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #11 - Mar 15^th, 2010 at 7:38pm

Maybe I'm missing the bigger picture here but it just seems to me that spending so much time and money on finding the smallest particles or trying to make black holes and stuff is such a wast when there are more important science issues about at the moment such as what to do when we hit peek oil (reckoned to be in about 5 years) etc.

It's not that I'm apposed to science in all it's formes but some of it seems a little unnecessary.

But like i said I'm probably missing the big picture, after all I am just a carpenter Wink

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Nigel

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #12 - Mar 15^th, 2010 at 8:30pm

Nigel,

The thing is that a lot these brainiacs aren't able to tie their shoes or fry and egg so it's best to let them have their way. That and I can't imagine how dull this planet would be without them. This little toy we use here exists because of them. Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to

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I love this stuff but I need more than a road map. I need a Dummies guide here.

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Headache Boy uk CH.com Old Timer Offline Matthew ch 11 v 28 Posts: 373 Mersea Island nr Colchester Gender:	Re: You science buffs gotta help me here. Reply #13 - Mar 15^th, 2010 at 8:59pm Ok here's one for you, dose finding / proving the existence of dark matter or dark energy mean that darkness actually exists , and is not just a word used to describe the lack of light ?
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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #14 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 12:29am

Quote:

when we hit peek oil (reckoned to be in about 5 years)

Not familiar with this day of reckoning, more of being under the reins of cost and further problems from its use. Drilling under the Artic will be easier with clearing ice.

In five years who knows, could be a base established at the Moon's poles to mine 100 million tons of He-3 only nine feet down, your M-15 and M-16 looking at protecting Earth's landing sites for conveying to newly built fusion reactors. From all this space crap, unlimited power. Wink

Wink

Quote:

Ok here's one for you, dose finding / proving the existence of dark matter or dark energy mean that darkness actually exists , and is not just a word used to describe the lack of light ?

Dark can mean hidden or secret so far, too.

My original reply to the MN detection mentioned, which may be in the area of the conversation, the using of absolute zero to freeze nuclei into place, I'd assume, is to detect movement, maybe capturing and identifying something weakly interacting with matter. It's not the only one, Lawrence Livermore and CERN have their projects. Separately also, annihilation detectors based in the Antarctic and a gamma ray telescope launched in 2008. Ideas of mystery hunters for capture, identity.

« Last Edit: Mar 16^th, 2010 at 3:39am by Kevin_M »

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #15 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 7:03pm

Headache Boy uk wrote on Mar 15^th, 2010 at 7:38pm:

It's not that I'm apposed to science in all it's formes but some of it seems a little unnecessary.

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- but some leaves me wondering.

My name is Brian. I'm a ClusterHead and I'm here to help. Email me anytime at briandinkum@yahoo.com

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cavalier

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #16 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 9:04pm

Forgive me; the dark side has left me a little twitchy for I see not all that appears to be.
I had a dream, which was not all a dream.
The bright sun was extinguished, and the stars
Did wander darkling in the eternal space,
Ray less, and pathless, and the icy earth
Swung blind and blackening in the moonless air;
Morn came, and went and came, and brought no day,
And men forgot their passions in the dread
Of this desolation; and all hearts
Were chilled into a selfish prayer for light:
Ho Hum.
Darkly speaking of course
Colin..

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Opus

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #17 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 10:59pm

Quote:

For a long period of time there was much speculation and controversy about where the so-called "missing matter" of the Universe had got to. All over the Galaxy the science departments of all the major universities were acquiring more and more elaborate equipment to probe and search the hearts of distant galaxies, and then the very centre and the very edges of the whole Universe, but when eventually it was tracked down it turned out in fact to he all the stuff which the equipment had been packed in. Mostly Harmless Douglas Adams

In reality there is so much dust in are galaxy that we cannot see the galactic core. It should be bright, maybe brighter than the sun. Every galaxy has this dust too, maybe even between the galaxies.

The mass of the universe is calculated by the light we see. With possible a large portion of this light being unable to be seen there is a lot of mass the isn't counted. Some scientist decided that dark matter or dark energy must be the answer and went searching for it. They ignore the dust in front of their eyes.

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There is no dark matter, it's all dark.

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #18 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 11:13pm

HEY>>>>>>>>>>>>!!
So, what's the matter, really with dark hair? Can ya tell me??
Cosmetologists have been discussing this with their clients for years now, but it's generally, blonde, brunette, redhead.........it's a SCIENCE.. not speculation!
The study of cosmetology will explain just how you achieve the shade desired and, if you're lucky, she's an aesthetician as well, assisiting you in facials and makeup color choices........glad I could help!
Oh, and if she's really good, she keeps her station clean and dust-free, too!

TA ALL!
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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #19 - Mar 16^th, 2010 at 11:57pm

Opus wrote on Mar 16^th, 2010 at 10:59pm:

The mass of the universe is calculated by the light we see. With possible a large portion of this light being unable to be seen there is a lot of mass the isn't counted. Some scientist decided that dark matter or dark energy must be the answer and went searching for it. They ignore the dust in front of their eyes.

Yet not true, they use the hot gas, there is an understandng of the details of gas physics. From a combination of temperature and density -- pressure of an ideal gas is directly proportional to its density times temperature, and the temperature of gas is encoded in the spectrum of x-ray radiation. At a particular temperature, it will have a particular shape. Observing the intensity of the x-ray signals over a range of energies, the temperature can be deduced.

With the hot cluster gas, it's stripped of electrons and ionized into a soup of negatively charged electrons and positively charged ions, known as plasma.
Collisions between electrons and ions produce x-rays -- the more electrons in the plasma, the more x-rays. Since the number of electrons is related to the number of atoms in the gas, total gas mass can be determined from the intensity of the x-ray radiation.

Concerning dust, condensation from gas to solid, it is detected by its radiative properties as well, easily noticed in this picture:

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Peering at just our neighbor, Andromeda galaxy, the hard-to-ignore pink is dust.

Quote:

In reality there is so much dust in are galaxy that we cannot see the galactic core.

Or if one would like, pictures minus the dust also:

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The core of our Milky Way without the dust.

Quote:

The bright sun was extinguished,

Darkly speaking of course

Oh now, not so dark really, Colin. When it goes, expanding into a giant red engulfing the Earth, we'll be within it!

« Last Edit: Mar 17^th, 2010 at 2:48am by Kevin_M »

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NancyB CH.com Veteran Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 169	Re: You science buffs gotta help me here. Reply #20 - Mar 17^th, 2010 at 11:20am Colin, I think you just need to ask a teenager to explain it to you.They know everything anyway!
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hug a root CH.com Newbie Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 13	Re: You science buffs gotta help me here. Reply #21 - Mar 17^th, 2010 at 1:34pm Colin, Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or Search for Patricia Burchat. This is a great site on many subjects. Root
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cavalier

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #22 - Mar 17^th, 2010 at 8:52pm

Don't get me on the topic of hot gas and visual imparement of the tubular looking tube to out there.

One moment whilst i wipe the dark matter from my eye.
Considering we don't see 70% of whats there and guess the rest
OK the worlds not flat and we ain't gonna fall off it if we go to far.
We totally assume from our mathematicians
(Maybe' another day)

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Opus

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #23 - Mar 18^th, 2010 at 1:14am

Kevin_M wrote on Mar 16^th, 2010 at 11:57pm:

Yet not true, they use the hot gas, there is an understandng of the details of gas physics. From a combination of temperature and density -- pressure of an ideal gas is directly proportional to its density times temperature, and the temperature of gas is encoded in the spectrum of x-ray radiation. At a particular temperature, it will have a particular shape. Observing the intensity of the x-ray signals over a range of energies, the temperature can be deduced.

I thought the X-ray studies were showing less mass than the inferred/visible/ultraviolet light studies. Am I out of touch with current data, or are scientist trying to use studies showing less mass?

Unrelated to above.
For those that misunderstand what Atheism believes this should help.

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Paul

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Re: You science buffs gotta help me here.
Reply #24 - Mar 18^th, 2010 at 9:05am

Opus wrote on Mar 18^th, 2010 at 1:14am:

I thought the X-ray studies were showing less mass than the inferred/visible/ultraviolet light studies. Am I out of touch with current data, or are scientist trying to use studies showing less mass?

I don't take you mean inferred/visible, however just for a moment, by itself, that portion had been misleading us to believe Andromeda, larger and with many, many more stars had more mass than the Milky Way. While it is larger with more stars, our galaxy has about an equal mass, so that's been unreliable.

What you more likely mean is the combination of infrared and ultraviolet, which as of early 2007 had found what was previously thought to be dark matter came to be harder to find visible matter and for the same reason we visibly miscalculated Andromeda's mass -- the Milky Way is more actively star-forming at its core.

This was done on dwarf galaxies that spewed out from a collision of larger galaxies and they happened to come from the core of the colliding galaxies, where the star-forming was going on. This is what has also determined our galaxy has the mass of Andromeda, because of this active star-forming at our core.

In the case of these dwarf galaxies, it has seemed to explain what was previously thought to be dark matter, but is in fact visible.

This all unfolds more, but these being from the disk and not the halo of the larger colliding galaxies, much mass is at the center, and explains why these dwarfs have so much mass thought to be hidden.

Dark matter seems to be in a halo around the core, which makes it still in the air, so to say.

But they do suspect that infrared/uv can detect the harder-to-find and its use is important. It surprisingly hasn't been a large topic on dark matter hunts but I'd like to find out more than what I've only read. Good point, Paul.

With computer modeling

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