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whats going on in wisconsin? (Read 16175 times)
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #25 - Feb 27th, 2011 at 6:02pm
 
This point cannot be made often enough: The deal that is being offered in this budget repair bill still exceeds what is offered to federal workers, who are not given the ability to collectively bargain for either wages or benefits. Yet the DNC has sent it's thugs to Madison to rouse the rabble about how this is an attack on them.

A Fox News reporter, Mike Tobin, was just physically struck by one of the protesters. And apparently the local police are not cooperating with the Capitol police in setting up the logistics for the arrest and detention of those who are now in violation of the law by staying in the capitol building beyond closing time.

This could get even bloodier before the day is out, and I'm fully expecting a mobilization of the National Guard.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #26 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 8:25am
 
Charlie,
Are you saying that if something happens to unions in Wisconsin, children will go to work and they will do away with minimum wage? 

To me, the bigger issue is this, "what if I don't want to belong to a union, but I still want a job?".  Closed shop doesn't benefit everybody.

Oh well, I better go tell those 12 year olds from the orphanage that are being put to work in the sugar mills for pennies on the dollar that they are being treated unfairly.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #27 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 5:57pm
 
Quote:
Are you saying that if something happens to unions in Wisconsin, children will go to work and they will do away with minimum wage? 

No.

Other states have no or not much public union structure. They have deficts too. Clobbering the middle class isn't the way to go but then Republicans always go after Sesame St. at budget cutting time.

This debate may be valuable as a calling cry. It has little to do with the budget. It's the result of puffed up tea party approved Republican Governors just squirming with glee at a chance to return to them good ole days.

Nothing new.

Charlie

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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #28 - Feb 28th, 2011 at 6:12pm
 
When you're buying more than you're selling, you're losing.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #29 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:07pm
 
Here's an interesting tidbit:

Quote:
By Christian Schneider

The vitriol from protesting Wisconsin workers towards the Kochs emerged quickly and intensely. Signs ranging between lame and vulgar (often both) dot the public-union marches.

But what the protesters don't realize is that they actually have a reason to root for the Koch brothers. According to the State of Wisconsin Investment Board (SWIB), the Wisconsin Retirement System owns $5.5 million in Georgia Pacific corporate bonds. (Georgia Pacific is owned by Koch Industries.) This is the retirement system in which the overwhelming majority of state and local employees participate. These are the pension benefits that public employees are trying so hard to protect.

So here's the challenge: Explain to a Wisconsin state worker that they are the ones helping fund the Koch brothers. Then sit back and watch the fun.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #30 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:47pm
 
I don't know about you guys but this sequence of events is extremely fun to watch. But it has an insidious side at the same time.

The behavior exhibited by those who have their pat existence threatened by the financial realities, exposed now by the cleansing light of truth, is worse than the "accusations" of the media (and others) toward those who questioned their "leaders" a Tea Party events.

This is the part that makes me most worried about the way things are going in our land. The absolute truth seems to be dead.

If the public unions have their way than there is no counterbalance to reasonably negotiate issues with politicians that are bought and paid for.  The unions are paying for and delivering the votes and the ridiculous cycle continues toward insolvency.

I've said it before... The parasite that kills its host is good for neither.

Steve G
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #31 - Mar 1st, 2011 at 10:50pm
 
At its core, there is something fundamentally wrong when the person sitting on one side of the bargaining table elects (and finances the campaign of) the person sitting on the opposite side.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #32 - Mar 2nd, 2011 at 5:57pm
 
You gotta love Scott Walker!  He cut off direct deposit for the Senators.  To get paid they have to return to the Senate!   Grin  I absolutely love it!  Now I just with Quinnoccio would grow a pair and do something for the people of IL instead of doing something TO the people of IL.

Jerry
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #33 - Mar 2nd, 2011 at 8:44pm
 
Wall Street Journal/NBC result: 77% (national) favored collective bargaining rights. You'll have your figures of course. Bear in mind that it was just for collective bargaining.

No more for me here. I'm worn out on this topic.

Charlie
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #34 - Mar 2nd, 2011 at 9:17pm
 
Charlie wrote on Mar 2nd, 2011 at 8:44pm:
Wall Street Journal/NBC result: 77% (national) favored collective bargaining rights.

Did the question specify for public workers?

Why aren't there any protests in Washington by federal workers? They don't have collective bargaining privileges.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #35 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 8:52am
 
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Quote:
Walker said the proposed cuts could be offset by cuts in public-employee health and pension benefits under his proposal to end collective bargaining for most public-employee unions. That plan has roiled the state for weeks.

Walker is among several Republican governors facing big budget shortfalls who are trying to weaken the traditional clout of public-worker unions. If his effort succeeds, it could be replicated in other states, curtailing the cost of union benefits and salaries while undercutting the political power of union members, who often support Democratic candidates.

"This is a reform budget. It is about getting Wisconsin working again," Walker said, "and to make that happen, we need a balanced budget that works -- and an environment where the private sector can create 250,000 jobs over the next four years."


Union workers of any kind may be wary of what is afoot.  In the past, when foreign auto makers built plants in the U.S. they went South with the lower wages.  In an "environment where the private sector can create 250,000 jobs" might mean less and less at the bargaining table for union members come contract time if this is a precedent for Wisconsin, employing more for less.

Since Walker hasn't given details, which would seem important, for 250,000 jobs in four years, it's a squirmy union situation when simply mentioning cozying the environment for business.






Prior to this WI situation, the L.A. Times reported the creating of a different cozy environment for business:

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Quote:
The billionaire brothers David and Charles Koch no longer sit outside Washington's political establishment, isolated by their uncompromising conservatism. Instead, they are now at the center of Republican power, a change most evident in the new makeup of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

Wichita-based Koch Industries and its employees formed the largest single oil and gas donor to members of the panel, ahead of giants like Exxon Mobil, contributing $279,500 to 22 of the committee's 31 Republicans, and $32,000 to five Democrats.

Nine of the 12 new Republicans on the panel signed a pledge distributed by a Koch-founded advocacy group -- Americans for Prosperity -- to oppose the Obama administration's proposal to regulate greenhouse gases. Of the six GOP freshman lawmakers on the panel, five benefited from the group's separate advertising and grass-roots activity during the 2010 campaign.

Claiming an electoral mandate, Republicans on the committee have launched an agenda of the sort long backed by the Koch brothers. A top early goal: restricting the reach of the Environmental Protection Agency, which oversees the Kochs' core energy businesses.

Perhaps the Kochs' most surprising and important ally on the committee is its new chairman, Rep. Fred Upton. The Republican from Michigan, who was once criticized by conservatives for his middle-of-the-road approach to environmental issues, is now leading the effort to rein in the EPA.

Upton received $20,000 in donations from Koch employees in 2010, making them among his top 10 donors in that cycle, according to the Center for Responsive Politics
.

In recent months the congressman has made a point of publicly aligning himself with the Koch-backed advocacy group, calling for an end to the "EPA chokehold." Last week the chairman released a draft of a bill that would strip the EPA of its ability to curb carbon emissions. The legislation is in line with the Kochs' long-advocated stance that the federal government should have a minimal role in regulating business. The Kochs' oil refineries and chemical plants stand to pay millions to reduce air pollution under currently proposed EPA regulations.

...

The Supreme Court ruled in 2007 that the EPA had the power to regulate greenhouse gases as air pollutants under the Clean Air Act. Pompeo, Griffith and others want to strip the EPA of that authority.

Until recently, Upton would have been an unlikely champion of that view.

In 2009, he told a Michigan newspaper: "Climate change is a serious problem that necessitates serious solutions."


more...

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« Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2011 at 2:56pm by Kevin_M »  
 
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #36 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 1:52pm
 
an excerpt from your quote Kevin and a question concerning the same excerpt.

"In 2009, he told a Michigan newspaper: "Climate change is a serious problem that necessitates serious solutions." "


Which climate change is the problem?  The "Global Warming" that was being touted just a few years ago became "Climate Change" due to the cooling trend of the earth for the last 10 years and the record cold and snow over most of the Northern Hemisphere this past winter.  One cannot have it both ways.  Carbon emissions cannot cause "Global Warming" and "Global Cooling" at the same time.  Back in the 60's and 70's and the Ecology movement of that time it was because of the "Coming Ice Age" supposedly caused by the same gases that were touted a few years back for "Global Warming".  The EPA has been a political tool since its inception to rein in industry in the US often on VERY shaky, if not forged, scientific data. 

Obviously I'm not advocating polluting the world, and neither are the vast majority of those in business.  What is needed is a bit of balance, and the EPA has never understood the meaning of the word.

Jerry
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #37 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 2:37pm
 
Quote:
"Climate Change" due to the cooling trend of the earth for the last 10 years


I think you may have missed the follow up to that info, which never makes the news, or just got carried away with the "news" stories that omitted the exact wording and picked up bites from it. 



Quote:
Back in the 60's and 70's and the Ecology movement of that time it was because of the "Coming Ice Age" supposedly caused by the same gases that were touted a few years back for "Global Warming".


As usual, the "news" picks up the unusual and bizarre, it sells.  Looking at all peer-reviewed journals from 1965 to 1979 concerning climate change they found 44 which predicted global warming, while only 7 predicted global cooling.  Apparently the press just found the cooling thing so much more interesting they latched onto it.  A study was done on this.







Quote:
"Global Warming" and "Global Cooling" at the same time.


One may be a short term interval toward a long term trend, once expressed by the same author in a paper of a particular model in your first quote above.  At his personal appearance lectures doubters came eagerly to hear how the earth was really cooling.  It wasn't to be.



off tangent here a bit
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« Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2011 at 3:15pm by Kevin_M »  
 
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #38 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 6:56pm
 
Climate change has little to do with the weather out side as it is perceived.

Charlie
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #39 - Mar 3rd, 2011 at 7:58pm
 
Charlie wrote on Mar 3rd, 2011 at 6:56pm:
Climate change has little to do with the weather out side as it is perceived.

Charlie

M'kay.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #40 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 2:31am
 
Back in line a little, I can see a lot of new jobs created in this millions for upgrades. 

Quote:
The Kochs' oil refineries and chemical plants stand to pay millions to reduce air pollution under currently proposed EPA regulations.


And actually a lot more employed all over Wisconsin working with compliance of Koch facilities.

Quote:
The Koch brothers' financial interests include Koch Pipeline Company, which operates a pipeline system that crosses Wisconsin, part of the nearly 4,000 miles of pipelines owned or operated by the company. It also owns Flint Hill Resources, which distributes refined fuel through pipelines and terminals in Junction City, Waupun, Madison and Milwaukee. Koch Industries also owns the "C. Reiss Coal Company," a power plant supply company located in Green Bay, Manitowoc, Ashland and Sheboygan (the company supplies coal to power plants).  Koch's paper and wood products division, Georgia Pacific, has six facilities in Wisconsin.



If Gov Scotty would specify this "environment" he's going to create enabling 250,000 new jobs and not leave people guessing with a wary statement.  Does attempting to void these regulations, not creating these new jobs, mean more work with less pay?  Which way is he leaning?

Another aspect to deal with:

Quote:
But the state has other underfunded commitments, the accumulation of which has put Wisconsin in dire financial straits.

The state’s unemployment fund, for example, is not only tapped out, it’s $1.5 billion in the red, because the state wasn’t financially prepared to deal with the tremendous drain on the fund caused by the Great Recession.

As a result, Wisconsin has had to borrow money from the federal government to pay out unemployment benefits. The debt continues to grow. Interest is accruing and the first interest payment of $48 million is due this fall.

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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #41 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 7:20am
 
The only thing that matters is that Scott ran on the campaign promise to do what he is doing and the people of WI elected him to do it.
Nice to see a politician do what he says he'll do during his campaign.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #42 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 9:14am
 
Gov Scotty outlined his six point plan for 250,000 jobs over a year ago.  Number 1 was lower taxes for employers to stimulate jobs.  Whereas the Revenue Dept. projects 190,000 jobs alone will be added without any policy changes, The U of W projects 250,000 alone with a normal recovery. 

Cutting taxes to biz for jobs.  In the last decade, the top five oil companies made 950 billion. Have they touted the jobs they created?  Money not invested in job creation this century.  Maybe the thought is, had only those corporation made an even trillion, things wouldn't have been so bad and we'd be out of this mess.


Point #2 is less regulation.  But keep the oil subsidies.  Void EPA regs. 





Scotty's got his agenda to stick to, I'll keep my feet on the ground, don't beam me up.  We got our own immense problems, good luck.
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #43 - Mar 4th, 2011 at 7:13pm
 
Cutting this, raising that, blah!

America has seem to lost its innovation. What we need is new corporations making items other countries want and are willing to pay for. Not only that, our government has become inefficient, IMO. And efficiency isn't just monetary, it's also flexible and objective.

This goes for both "sides".
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #44 - Mar 6th, 2011 at 11:34am
 
I've been trying to read and understand what is going on in WI, and seems to be spilling over into other states as well.

As I understand,

WI has a huge budget deficit that, by law, they must balance.

WI has a union for PUBLIC employees (those who work for the state/county/city) which has collective bargaining for their wages, benefits (medical/retirement - etc.). 

WI is not in the business of making a profit, like PRIVATE businesses that may also be unionized.  WI uses taxpayer dollars to pay the wages and benefits of the employees who work for this PUBLIC entity.

In order to try to reduce spending to help balance the budget, WI is telling the PUBLIC employee union, that they can no longer collectively bargain for their BENEFITS (collective bargaining is still OK on their wages).  WI is asking PUBLIC employees to cough up more money out of their own pockets for their medical/retirement, etc. BENEFITS (not wages), relieving the taxpayers of some of this financial expense.  This has nothing to do with PRIVATELY UNIONIZED entities.

The democrats have bailed to Illinois to stop the vote on this issue, staying in a hotel, eating out or bringing in food.  Since they won't return to WI, WI is suspending their paychecks - meaning the cost of their "vacation" is coming out of their own wallets - or is it?  Are their costs going on their expense accounts meaning the taxpayers are paying for it?

Those people now staying in Illinois signed an oath when they were elected to office to follow the laws of the state of WI.  They are derelict in their duty to the state because they took their little ball and left the playing field like five year olds.  Why are they not immediately relieved of their duties?

I planned on entering my 2 cents, but it's probably more like a buck's worth of opinion.

Sandy

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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #45 - Mar 6th, 2011 at 12:00pm
 
If the prodigal democrats don't come back to work soon - probably within the next week - the whole issue will shift to recall elections, and Wisconsin will enter a quasi-permanent election cycle.

I think the Senate leadership and Walker have been playing their lowest cards first. They're still holding the trump cards, like a "nuclear option," namely removing the collective bargaining language from the budget repair bill and voting on it as a non-fiscal issue (which doesn't require a 3/5 quorum).

(Edited to subtract the word "the" before Walker cuz I kin rite reel much gud. Duh.)
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #46 - Mar 6th, 2011 at 12:53pm
 
All I gotta say is they better have some trump cards because having this at a standstill SUCKS!!
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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #47 - Mar 6th, 2011 at 1:39pm
 
Brew wrote on Mar 6th, 2011 at 12:00pm:
...removing the collective bargaining language from the budget repair bill and voting on it as a non-fiscal issue (which doesn't require a 3/5 quorum).


Just looking at that portion, these are some of the highlights:


Quote:
Collective bargaining

Makes various changes to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages. Total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on inflation unless approved by referendum. Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until a new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues, and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues. Changes would be effective upon expiration of existing contracts. Law enforcement, fire employees and state troopers and inspectors would be exempt from the changes.


also though

Quote:
Health care, academic workers

Repeals the authority of home health care workers, family child care workers, UW Hospitals and Clinics employees, and UW faculty and academic staff to collectively bargain.


Times are tough.  Being this involves so many people though, backlash to language that might seem harsh can be amassed to the present situation.



Otherwise, highlights I'd agree are realistic:

Quote:
Pension contributions
Requires employees who pay into the Wisconsin Retirement System to contribute 50 percent of their annual pension payment. That amount is estimated to be 5.8% of salary in 2011.

Health insurance contributions
Requires state employees to pay at least 12.6% of the average cost of annual premiums. Require changes to the plan design necessary to reduce current premiums by 5%. Local employers participating in the Public Employers Group Health Insurance plan would be prohibited from paying more than 88% of the lowest cost plan.


Pension accounting has made it a large liability* and health care is just plain expensive.




Quote:
Absences and other work actions

Authorizes appointing agencies to terminate any employees who are absent for three days without approval or any employees participating in an organized action to stop or slow work if the governor has declared a state of emergency.


I'm definitely for showing up, my crew knows that.  Slacking in an emergency don't cut it either.





*dark article about this:

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Economists: State, local pension funds understate shortfall by $1.5 trillion or more

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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #48 - Mar 9th, 2011 at 7:55pm
 
Hey Brew, is this the Trump card??

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Re: whats going on in wisconsin?
Reply #49 - Mar 9th, 2011 at 8:22pm
 
That's the nuclear option.  And they passed it.

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