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Your brain on oxygen (Read 6497 times)
Potter
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #25 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 12:01pm
 
Ricardo wrote on Mar 16th, 2011 at 11:53am:
Wow...the idea that there is a government conspiracy to limit the amount of 100% oxygen that I can get is definitely interesting....but I'm really interested in oxygen and what it's doing to our brain.  IS it activating our hypothalamus?  Or is it really just vasoconstriction at work?  Anybody have any other info on that?

  It works,  let's not over think it.

          Potter
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Ricardo
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #26 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 12:24pm
 
I like to know as many pieces of the puzzle that I can , that's all.  I'm a neurology nut...And one of my strong points has always been to be able to take small parts of information and put them together to come up with a more complete idea of what's going on.  I 100% believe that the more knowledge I have about the beast, what keeps it here and what makes it go away (and why), the better.  You might just be surprised at the info you can come up with when you put a whole lot of small stuff together.
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #27 - Mar 16th, 2011 at 3:59pm
 
Hey Ricardo,

I applaud your quest for knowledge in the pathophysiology of the cluster headache and the oxygen therapy abort mechanism, but you're asking questions that the brightest minds in neurology who study the cluster headache syndrome on a near daily basis have been grappling with for years.  If the answers to your questions were at hand, these experts would likely be a lot closer to understanding the real cause or our disorder.

The reality of the situation is this, we suffer from an orphan disorder and there will never be enough money to do the kind and number of studies needed to answer your questions and many others that desperately need answers. 

We're fortunate to have as many as one clinical study related to cluster headache a year and that's still not enough to answer the mail, but it's better than no studies at all.

I had the opportunity to meet with Prof. Dr. Arne May at the University Hosptial, Hamburg UKE last July for two days.  He's one of the cluster headache experts I spoke of and he specializes in functional and structural neuroimaging.  His work is light years ahead of the study done by Macy, Woo, and Harper. Prof. Dr. May is also the author of the EFNS guidelines on the treatment of cluster headache and other trigeminal-autonomic cephalalgias.

I met with him to enlist his services as the Principal Investigator for a gold standard protocol study of the demand valve method of oxygen therapy for cluster headache with some functional and structural neuroimaging thrown in for good measure. 

He agreed, but there was a small matter of the Million or so USD needed to fund the study...  So, if you've got a line on funding like that, sing out and we'll have what it takes to get you some answers...

Regarding a government conspiracy to limit access to oxygen therapy... That's a bit strong...  Having said that, I'm surprised that with your ability to piece together small parts of the puzzle to get the big picture that you haven't noticed that oxygen therapy is the most over regulated USP in medical history.

I'm surprised you haven't noticed and commented on the fact that someone can go out and get a Hovaround scooter for free in less than a week because they're too overweight to walk, or that doctors can fill your pockets with percocet in less than two shakes of a lamb's tail, but it will take over 30 minutes to fill out all the required paperwork mandated by CMS and schedule tests for oxygen saturation (if you're a COPD sufferer) to go along with the prescription for oxygen therapy...  and that's if you can talk the physician into writing one...

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services have an entire division up in Baltimore dedicated to administering Oxygen DME and they also have a government stooge at every major home oxygen provider's home office to review your prescription.  When you piece together these little facts with what I pointed out earlier in this thread, perhaps you'll see the big picture like I do.

All for now...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2011 at 4:11pm by Batch »  

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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #28 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 7:14am
 
Quote:
I'm really interested in oxygen and what it's doing to our brain.  IS it activating our hypothalamus?  Or is it really just vasoconstriction at work?  Anybody have any other info on that?


A long time ago on the old board here, someone posted on how oxygen works for us, but I've no idea how true it is.  It sounded good, so I just went with it.

The brain of course needs to be supplied oxygen, which it gets through the arteries, but the amount cannot be a totally unregulated amount.  If the brain is receiving a higher amount of oxygen than it normally functions at, there is a built in regulator system.  The brain can somehow, maybe with hormones, use the mechanism it has at its disposal -- constrict the cranial arteries bringing the oxygen.  Perhaps an automatic survival mechanism.

This is an automatic reaction built into our system in an attempt to have oxygen delivered at a regulated rate.  In this way it would be the constricting of cranial arteries that relieves the trigeminal nerve.  Apparently, this reaction can be a stronger natural impulse than what made CH expand them. 

The rare times oxygen seems difficult to relieve a CH, like when it's going strong, the impulse of CH is fighting the brain's natural regulation of constricting the oxygen flow it's receiving, and they are both fighting to a draw. However, this natural method will work most everytime if started early and kept up long enough, but CH will return again later characteristically.

In this way, its the constriction, and it may be that the brain's automatic regulation system to constrict is kicked on by the hypothalamus doing the regulating. 

Sounded ok to me since I haven't heard much else about it.
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« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2011 at 3:04pm by Kevin_M »  
 
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #29 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 8:04am
 
Kevin, that's what I read too. So even though I try not to believe EVERYTHING I read, it was a simple enough explanation that even if it's not true, it seems to satisfy the people that look at me weird when I tell them that paracetamol and codeine and tramadol and ibuprofen don't work, but chugging pure oxygen does  Cheesy
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #30 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 1:46pm
 
Hey Kevin,

You're correct, the body and brain do have homeostatic mechanisms that control vasoactivity, respiration rate, heartbeat, and arterial pH.  However, it's carbon dioxide (CO2) levels and not oxygen (O2) levels that acts as the primary stimulus for these homeostatic mechanisms. 

For example, if you do jumping jacks for 30 seconds or climb a couple flights of stairs at a fast pace, you start breathing faster and your heart also starts beating faster.  What you can't see is your arteries dilate as well.  All this happens due to the build up of CO2 in the venous and arterial blood as a result of the increased physical activity. 

As CO2 takes the form of carbonic acid in the blood, this increase in acidity results in a lower pH. There's also a build up of lactic acid that's generated when muscle tissue is stressed without enough oxygen. (If you're a jock, you know this is called anaerobic glycolysis.)  This build up in lactic acid drops the pH of the venous and arterial blood even further.

When the chemo sensors in the brain detect an elevation in CO2 levels and drop in arterial pH, an acid-base homeostatic mechanism kicks in and the brain signals the heart to beat faster, the lungs to breath faster and the arteries to dilate.  It does all this to pump more blood to the lungs where the excess carbonic acid can be cast off or downloaded from blood hemoglobin as CO2 and oxygen in uploaded. 

This increased respiration rate and heartbeat will continue until the excess CO2 is cast off to allow CO2 levels to fall back in the normal range and the arterial pH to rise back into the normal range.  At that point the brain signals the heart to slow to a normal rhythm and respiration to slow to a normal rate.  It also signals the dilated arteries to constrict back to a normal lumen (diameter).

Understanding this acid-base homeostatic mechanism and knowing that it works in both directions to maintain an acid-base balance in an arterial pH range of 7.35 to 7.45 is the key to understanding how to use oxygen therapy more effectively and why higher flow rates that support hyperventilation are needed.

When we breathe 100% oxygen at normal respiration rates, we elevate the partial pressure of oxygen in the blood above normal.  This is defined as hyperoxia and this condition is a component of the cluster headache abort mechanism with oxygen therapy. 

The exact mechanism(s) remain(s) unclear, but hyperoxia from breathing 100% oxygen stimulates vasoconstriction and as vasodilation is part of the pathophysiology of the cluster headache, stimulating vasoconstriction helps stop the pain and abort the cluster headache.  This leaves us with the following physiological equation:

   hyperoxia = vasodilation = CH abort

Now here's where CO2 levels play a role in the cluster headache abort mechanism during oxygen therapy.  We already know from the discussion above on acid-base homeostasis that an increase in carbonic acid (CO2) levels in the blood stream above normal (hypercapnia) will trigger vasodilation. 

It also turns out that when carbonic acid (CO2) levels in the blood stream drop below normal (hypocapnia), acid-base homeostasis kicks in to trigger a decrease in heartbeat, a slowing of the respiration rate and vasoconstriction.  This is done to slow the loss of carbonic acid (CO2) from the lungs and allow it to build back up to normal levels. 

That means if we can lower the carbonic acid (CO2) levels in the blood stream below normal (hypocapnia), we can stimulate vasoconstriction. 

How do we do this?  Simple...  We intentionally hyperventilate long enough to raise arterial pH above the normal range of 7.35 - 7.45.  This results in respiratory alkalosis.

That leaves us with the following physiological equations with respect to oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation:

If
  hyperoxia = vasoconstriction
and
  hypocapnia = vasoconstriction
then 
  hyperoxia + hypocapnia = greater vasoconstriction = faster CH abort

Now here is where things can get complicated.  From the study that Ricardo cited where they added 5% CO2 to the oxygen breathed by the children, they observed no vasoconstriction.  That leaves us with the following physiological equation with respect to the relative vasoactive strengths of hyperoxia and hypercapnia:

  hypercapnia > hyperoxia

In other words, excess carbon dioxide in the bloodstream is a more powerful vasodilator than excess oxygen is as a vasoconstrictor.

Let's see how that plays out when we're trying to abort a cluster headache with oxygen therapy...

If we breath 100% oxygen at a flow rate of 15 liters/minute and remain motionless with a low level of physical activity, we should be able to bring about an abort of the cluster headache as long an the cluster headache pain is low enough to allow us to remain at a low level of physical activity.

However, if the cluster headache pain starts us rocking back and forth or dancing in circles and the level of lung ventilation provided by an oxygen flow rate of 15 liters/minute is insufficient to cast off the excess CO2 resulting from the increased physical activity, an abort with oxygen therapy may not be possible or it will take much longer than normal.  That leaves us with the following physiological equation:

   hyperoxia + hypercapnia = vasodilation ≠ CH abort

This is why we say that oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation is more effective with shorter abort times than oxygen therapy at flow rates ≤15 liters/minute.

This discussion assumes that through the act of intentionally hyperventilating with 100% oxygen, we are able to bias the acid-base homeostasis mechanism to achieve a greater level of vasoconstriction regardless of the level of physical activity and this will result in a fast abort of the cluster headache pain and triggering mechanism. 

Is this the only mechanism in play?  No.

Another related mechanism occurs when we hyperventilate with 100% oxygen.  It's called the Bohr effect.  Under normal conditions when the blood pH is low as it is in the body and brain tissues, hemoglobin offloads oxygen and uploads carbon dioxide.  When the blood pH is high as it is in the lungs, hemoglobin offloads carbon dioxide and uploads oxygen.  This is the normal oxygen and carbon dioxide transport mechanism between the body and lungs.

However when we artificially elevate arterial pH in the lungs even further through the act of intentionally hyperventilating with 100% oxygen, hemoglobin increases its affinity for oxygen and uploads more oxygen than normal.  This results in a super-oxygenated flow of blood to the brain greater than the hyperoxia from breathing 100% oxygen at normal respiration rates and that results in an increased level of vasoconstriction.

Clearly, there are other mechanisms involved in the cluster headache abort process with oxygen therapy and that's what Ricardo wants to learn.  That leads us to a possible question as to which is the predominant mechanism in play, acid-base homeostasis, or a cocktail of hormones, enzymes, and chemical messengers triggered by hyperoxia?

I don't know...  The neurochemistry involved is well above my pay-grade. 

What I do know from personal experience, and from the results of an informal pilot study we conducted with 7 other participants, is that oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation is far superior with greater efficacy as a cluster headache abortive than is possible with oxygen therapy at a flow rate of ≤15 liters/minute.  Moreover this method of oxygen therapy has significantly shorter abort times.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2011 at 1:56pm by Batch »  

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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #31 - Mar 17th, 2011 at 4:41pm
 
Couldn't have said it better myself, Batch!   Smiley
Having taught the basics of respiration and gas laws to Anatomy & Physiology students from various texts, I'm going to print out your missive and use it as a supplemental reference!
-Gary
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #32 - Mar 18th, 2011 at 1:10am
 
Batch,

Looking at the question he asked, it pretty much involved oxygen use.

Quote:
I'm really interested in oxygen and what it's doing to our brain.  IS it activating our hypothalamus?  Or is it really just vasoconstriction at work?  Anybody have any other info on that?


Your post was good coverage of the oxygen abortive mechanism. 


Following that question ...

Quote:
I like to know as many pieces of the puzzle that I can , that's all.  I'm a neurology nut...And one of my strong points has always been to be able to take small parts of information and put them together to come up with a more complete idea of what's going on.  I 100% believe that the more knowledge I have about the beast, what keeps it here and what makes it go away (and why), the better.  You might just be surprised at the info you can come up with when you put a whole lot of small stuff together.


What keeps them here is not using oxygen.   Wink 

What makes them happen is a harder question.

   
The mechanisms involved with oyxgen you have mentioned seem to be encompassing enough to be more than a small piece.







This is an article about an unrelated disease, but in its symptoms it brings up much of the process you described.


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Quote:
Central neurogenic hyperventilation (CNH)

CNH is the human body's response to reduced carbon dioxide levels in the blood. This reduction in carbon dioxide is caused by contraction of cranial arteries

Symptoms of CNH have been observed to vary according to the progression of CNH. The initial symptoms of CNH include a low arterial partial pressure of carbon dioxide, a high or normal arterial partial pressure of oxygen, high arterial pH, and tachypnea.[3][4][5][9][10] The partial pressure of carbon dioxide has been noted by Yushi et al. to drop as low as 6.7 mmHg, while oxygen saturation remains at 99-100%.[9] Respiratory alkalosis is induced in people affected with CNH, which stimulates the hyperpnea to attempt to compensate the rise of the blood’s pH.[5] Some of the reported cases of CNH claim alkaline cerebral spinal fluid (CSF).

This condition is thought to result from severe hypocapnia that induces blood vessels in the brain to constrict, leading to brain ischemia.[5]



Maybe the footnoted articles may lead somewhere and possibly have something to offer, or it's familiar to you and abets what you've compiled.

Quote:
Clearly, there are other mechanisms involved in the cluster headache abort process with oxygen therapy and that's what Ricardo wants to learn.  That leads us to a possible question as to which is the predominant mechanism in play ...
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« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2011 at 1:15am by Kevin_M »  
 
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Re: Your brain on oxygen
Reply #33 - Mar 18th, 2011 at 8:11am
 
Thanks guys!  This is the kinda stuff I'm talking about!
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