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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #50 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:23pm

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 10:36am:

deltadarlin wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 10:01am:

Jimi wrote on Oct 8^th, 2011 at 10:20pm:

That sounds good...the problem is that most states are broke. So they will get funded by the feds.

Therein lies the biggest problem.

Do you know WHY the states are broke?

The economy.....unfunded mandates handed down from the feds......and the fact they can't print money.....

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #51 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:29pm

Kevin_M wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:00pm:

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 8:57am:

any help needed to its citizens, would come from the state they live in.

concerning Jimi's statement:

Quote:

That sounds good...the problem is that most states are broke. So they will get funded by the feds.

What if a state's unemployment fund was tapped out to the tune of say $1.5 billion in the red and needed to borrow money. The fed will lend, with interest of course of say $48 million a year. The employment picture has not been kind the last four years. What if this was just Wisconsin alone.

I am not sure what you're asking, Kevin? Are you wanting the Fed to keep operating, printing money that the Federal government doesn't have in order to lend WI the money?

My answer would have to be that Wisconsin will have to restructure its budget by taking from one (or several) line itmes and probably raise taxes in order to stay in the black.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #52 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:50pm

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:29pm:

I am not sure what you're asking, Kevin? Are you wanting the Fed to keep operating, printing money that the Federal government doesn't have in order to lend WI the money?

There are times of hardship. If the gov didn't have the money to give to help with natural disasters such as the tornados last spring or the Texas fires, it should not help and let each particular state be responsible?

Quote:

My answer would have to be that Wisconsin will have to restructure its budget by taking from one (or several) line itmes and probably raise taxes in order to stay in the black.

That hasn't seemed a popular vote-getter, Mel.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #53 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:57pm

Kevin_M wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:50pm:

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:29pm:

I am not sure what you're asking, Kevin? Are you wanting the Fed to keep operating, printing money that the Federal government doesn't have in order to lend WI the money?

There are times of hardship. If the gov didn't have the money to give to help with natural disasters such as the tornados last spring or the Texas fires, it should not help and let each particular state be responsible?

First of all, please differentiate between Federal and State governments, thanks. Secondly, if the Federal government had been following the Constitution to begin with, you wouldn't even be asking me this question.

Quote:

Quote:

My answer would have to be that Wisconsin will have to restructure its budget by taking from one (or several) line itmes and probably raise taxes in order to stay in the black.

That hasn't seemed a popular vote-getter, Mel.

No, it's not, because its citizens haven't trusted politicians with their money for quite some time now. That and because we are taxed on our income, property, state and federal as well as on goods and services and we have lost our voice in where that money goes due to a corrupt system based on lies, propaganda and a corporate owned media as well as an illusory monetary policy.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #54 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 1:21pm

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

First of all, please differentiate between Federal and State governments, thanks.

Quote:

If the [Fed] gov didn't have the money...

I took it we were talking about the fed.

Quote:

Secondly, if the Federal government had been following the Constitution to begin with, you wouldn't even be asking me this question.

Where would states turn to in hardship or natural disaster. I understand the Fed gov doesn't have the money due to many reasons, but present situation being, they wouldn't turn their back on a hardship a state can't handle when needed, whether the fed gov has the money or not.

Quote:

...we have lost our voice in where that money goes due to...

Which takes us back to the original post of the 99% who have less influence in these decisions.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #55 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 1:45pm

Kevin_M wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 1:21pm:

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

First of all, please differentiate between Federal and State governments, thanks.

Quote:

If the [Fed] gov didn't have the money...

I took it we were talking about the fed.

Quote:

Secondly, if the Federal government had been following the Constitution to begin with, you wouldn't even be asking me this question.

Where would states turn to in hardship or natural disaster. I understand the Fed gov doesn't have the money due to many reasons, but present situation being, they wouldn't turn their back on a hardship a state can't handle when needed, whether the fed gov has the money or not.

What will the states do? The states could make it so people aren't able to build in disaster prone areas and they could build up a fund when the economy is prosperous to provide for its citizens if hit by a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, flood, etc.

Quote:

Quote:

...we have lost our voice in where that money goes due to...

Which takes us back to the original post of the 99% who have less influence these decisions.

I'm lost here? Do you think I don't understand where their voices are coming from? If I have not made myself clear that I support them, I am sorry. But what I really would like to see is a clearer objective made by the protesters other than they're mad that the banks were bailed out and they weren't. Many folks are going by what they see on the national news, and much of it is made to look like the people occupying Wall Street are just mad that they have lost their jobs, homes, etc. due to the economy. Which is understandable! But what it DOESN'T show, is what the root of the protesting is for.

It'd be nice to see a clearer message. That's all.

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Melissa CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline Don't give up! Posts: 7238 Central WI, USA Gender:	Re: We are the 99 percent Reply #56 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 1:47pm Here's a clear message... Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!! You need to or
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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #57 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:02pm

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 1:45pm:

What will the states do? The states could make it so people aren't able to build in disaster prone areas and they could build up a fund when the economy is prosperous to provide for its citizens if hit by a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, flood, etc.

At times the state of California is a disaster prone area due to earthquakes. Florida due to hurricanes. This year Texas due to fires and Louisiana due to floods. There's tornado alley. Difficult.

I'm sure there are funds, as there are unemployment funds, but they get tapped out in severe times.

Quote:

...what the root of the protesting is for.

I didn't have to read word of any newsprint to know. When they mentioned 99%, it's been told, they've just got hold of a drift already written in many recent books.

Quote:

It'd be nice to see a clearer message. That's all.

Yep, my first reply this thread mentioned "unfocused". Some conversation's been sidetracked by it.

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deltadarlin CH.com Alumnus Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 3823 Downsville LA Gender:	Re: We are the 99 percent Reply #58 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:05pm Quote: The states could make it so people aren't able to build in disaster prone areas and they could build up a fund when the economy is prosperous to provide for its citizens if hit by a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, flood, etc. A bit too late, don't you think? Even if it weren't already done, that's not feasible.
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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #59 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:06pm

Kevin_M wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:02pm:

At times the state of California is a disaster prone area due to earthquakes. Florida due to hurricanes. This year Texas due to fires and Louisiana due to floods. There's tornado alley. Difficult.

I'm sure there are funds, as there are unemployment funds, but they get tapped out in severe times.

Which is why they need to be replenished as soon as possible. It's a revolving fund, just like the sinking funds our family has to pay home maintenance, car replacement, car repair, etc.

Quote:

Yep, my first reply this thread mentioned "unfocused". Some conversation's been sidetracked by it.

Agreed, and I probably added to it by making it even more muddled, lol.

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Diseases can be our spiritual flat tires - disruptions in our lives that seem to be disasters at the time but end by redirecting our lives in a meaningful way. ~Bernie S. Siegel

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #60 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:11pm

deltadarlin wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:05pm:

Quote:

The states could make it so people aren't able to build in disaster prone areas and they could build up a fund when the economy is prosperous to provide for its citizens if hit by a hurricane, tornado, earthquake, flood, etc.

A bit too late, don't you think? Even if it weren't already done, that's not feasible.

There is nothing wrong with states starting now. For example, it would cost less to pay to have someone relocated than it would cost after the disaster. People can decide for themselves to stay, but they also have to realize they need to be responsible for their decisions. I don't think others should have to pay if I am given a choice to build my home on a flood plain when I've been warned not to, and then cry for help from my state government to pay me for damages after there is a flood.

When do we start being responsible and start getting off of our dependency on everyone else? It becomes entangled and snarly because the red tape is wrapped around everything...

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:16pm by Melissa »

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #61 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:32pm

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:11pm:

...after the disaster. People can decide for themselves to stay, but they also have to realize they need to be responsible for their decisions.

Reminds me of the early 80's when starvation in Ethiopia made world news.

Well...IT'S FUCKING SAND, YOU CAN"T GROW ANYTHING!!!!

There were so many jokes.

But they somehow have the best coffee. Wink

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #62 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 3:39pm

Kevin_M wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:32pm:

Melissa wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 2:11pm:

...after the disaster. People can decide for themselves to stay, but they also have to realize they need to be responsible for their decisions.

Reminds me of the early 80's when starvation in Ethiopia made world news.

Well...IT'S FUCKING SAND, YOU CAN"T GROW ANYTHING!!!!

There were so many jokes.

But they somehow have the best coffee. Wink

I don't believe I've ever had Ethiopian coffee? I really like Kona and Sumatra myself.

Dang it, now I gotta go brew a cup...

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Diseases can be our spiritual flat tires - disruptions in our lives that seem to be disasters at the time but end by redirecting our lives in a meaningful way. ~Bernie S. Siegel

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deltadarlin CH.com Alumnus Offline I love YaBB 1G - SP1! Posts: 3823 Downsville LA Gender:	Re: We are the 99 percent Reply #63 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 7:28pm What about infrastructure. As to charities handling the burden of the people in need. What happens when they go broke and can no longer handle the participants? Our local food bank is almost bare.
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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #64 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 9:57pm

deltadarlin wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 7:28pm:

What about infrastructure.

As to charities handling the burden of the people in need. What happens when they go broke and can no longer handle the participants? Our local food bank is almost bare.

Carolyn, why can't the State governments take care of these things? Why does it have to be the Federal government?

If we got the Fed out of all the things the states are supposed to take care of as deemed by the Constitution of this country, the states would have enough money to care for these things as designated by its citizens. Democracy works much better at the local level anyway instead of the Federal level.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #65 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 11:05pm

Some very interesting reading concerning the early arguments among our nation's founders about the Federal Governments ability to tax and spend.
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; Madison consistently argued the Federal Government did not have the power to expend monies on anything not enumerated within the Constitution. He ought to know what it meant since he is the primary author of it. Funny that he isn't taught in our schools today.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #66 - Oct 9^th, 2011 at 11:23pm

Again from James Madison: "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."
-- James Madison

It is very nice of the government to respond to disasters, i.e. hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes, fires, etc., but you cannot find in the Constitution of the United States any such provision, nor can you find instance before the time of FDR that such actions were taken on a large scale. (To the best of my research. If you can find such instance I would appreciate being shown it.) Neither can you find government sponsored crop insurance, hail insurance, flood insurance, etc. If the populace wants to pool its resources together to cover such risks that is all well and good. It's called insurance. However, when the government decides to pool my resources to cover another individual's risk without my consent that is called tyranny. To quote C.S. Lewis:
" If we are to be mothered, mother must know best. . . . In every age the men who want us under their thumb, if they have any sense, will put forward the particular pretension which the hopes and fears of that age render most potent. They ‘cash in.’ It has been magic, it has been Christianity. Now it will certainly be science. . . . Let us not be deceived by phrases about ‘Man taking charge of his own destiny.’ All that can really happen is that some men will take charge of the destiny of others. . . . The more completely we are planned the more powerful they will be.
. . . .

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. Their very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be ‘cured’ against one’s will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.
—C. S. Lewis, God in the Dock

I can't say it better than that.

Jerry

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« Last Edit: Oct 9^th, 2011 at 11:25pm by Callico »

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #67 - Oct 10^th, 2011 at 7:40am

Callico wrote on Oct 9^th, 2011 at 11:23pm:

...nor can you find instance before the time of FDR that such actions were taken on a large scale. (To the best of my research. If you can find such instance I would appreciate being shown it.)

It doesn't take looking back very far, Hoover's work in the Commission for Relief of Belgium - Fed gov sponsored 80%, for an international example. Then his work on the Great Mississippi flood of 1927 for a domestic example. Charlie would recognize the Whiz Kid. Wink

This welfare tangent is a bit disjointed, someone must be listening to or watching the media. Strange.

To add:

If you wish to know of the first large act of the fed gov in aid the states, in 1789 the debt owed for the Revolutionary War was $79 million. $45 million was debt the states owed. The fed gov assumed the states' debt.

Alternate history:

George Washington: If we go headlong into this thing against Britain, we may have to borrow.

Ben Franklin: Oh well then forget it. A penny saved is...

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #68 - Oct 10^th, 2011 at 9:16am

the government should never rescue corporations that base themselves on unstable and unsustainable business models. if they are not frugal or competitive enough to succeed on their own, they should be allowed to fail. to save them is to promote financial irresponsibility.

when assessing risk, remember...

too much energy invested in an unstable system inevitably leads to collapse.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #69 - Oct 10^th, 2011 at 9:43am

It doesn't take looking back very far, Hoover's work in the Commission for Relief of Belgium - Fed gov sponsored 80%, for an international example. Then his work on the Great Mississippi flood of 1927 for a domestic example. Charlie would recognize the Whiz Kid. Wink

This welfare tangent is a bit disjointed, someone must be listening to or watching the media. Strange.

To add:

If you wish to know of the first large act of the fed gov in aid the states, in 1789 the debt owed for the Revolutionary War was $79 million. $45 million was debt the states owed. The fed gov assumed the states' debt.

) [/quote]

Kevin,
With respect, Hoover did what he did during the 1st War as a private citizen. I had forgotten his involvement with that. I'm not sure of the 80% number, but will bow to your knowledge. That bumps us back then to the Wilson era.

The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 was a multi-state issue and involved Interstate Commerce, properly making it a Federal issue. I won't argue that there were no improper usages of the funds from that. That is normally the case when the Fed Gov gets involved.

In 1789 the debt assumption of the States by the Federal Government was proper. The States had made expenditures in the fight for the independence of the whole because the disjointed union under the Articles of Confederation was unable to properly tax and support the armies in the field.

jc

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #70 - Oct 10^th, 2011 at 10:24am

Callico wrote on Oct 10^th, 2011 at 9:43am:

With respect, Hoover did what he did during the 1st War as a private citizen. I had forgotten his involvement with that. I'm not sure of the 80% number...

I went a little conservative with the figure, U.S. gov kicked in 85%. In a way it was unfortunate for Hoover because he did not know the fed gov contributed. He thought the donations all came from charities and private donations. Consequently when the Great Depression hit he remembered how many billions had been raised to feed millions without the fed gov's involvement. This swayed his initial decisions as president to have the fed step in to help as the depression steepened. He was persuaded from past experience that charities and the private sector could step up and aid people who needed it. The scale became too large.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #71 - Oct 10^th, 2011 at 4:32pm

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Posted October 07, 2011

Wall Street couldn’t have done it alone. It takes a government and/or its central bank, the Federal Reserve System, to:

Create barriers to entry for the purpose of sheltering existing banks from competition and radical innovation, then regulate for the benefit of the privileged industry;
Issue artificially cheap, economy-distorting credit in order to, among other things, give banks incentives to make shaky but profitable mortgage loans (and also to grease the war machine through deficit spending);
Make it lucrative for banks – and their bonus-collecting executives — to bundle thousands of shaky mortgages into securities and other derivatives with the knowledge that government-sponsored enterprises Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and other companies, all subject to powerful congressmen looking for campaign contributions, would buy them after a government-licensed rating cartel scores them AAA;
Inflate an unsustainable housing bubble by the foregoing and other methods, enticing people to foolishly overinvest in real estate.
Work closely with lending companies to establish a variety of programs designed to lure people with few resources or bad credit into buying houses they can’t afford;
Attract workers to the home-construction bubble, setting them up for long-term unemployment when the bubble inevitably burst;
Implicitly guarantee big financial companies and/or their creditors that if they get into trouble they would be rescued;
Compel the taxpayers to bail out those companies and/or creditors when the roof finally fell in.

No bank or group of banks could do these things on its own in a freed market. It takes a government-Wall Street partnership – the corporate state — to create such misery and exploitation.

So demonstrators, you are right. Something is dreadfully wrong. But your list of culprits is far from complete. So go ahead and protest outside Goldman Sachs and Bank of America. But also spend some time outside the White House, the Fed, the Treasury, and the Capitol Building. Together they are responsible for our current economic woes. These are the entities that control our fate and over which we have no real say. It’s time for things to change.

Greed without political power is boorish. Greed with political power is dangerous.

The freed market is the alternative to what you properly despise.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #72 - Oct 10^th, 2011 at 6:30pm

Now if only they would stop giving away all that free food to poor kids, they wouldn't be so fat.

When the 1920s got under way, the progressive era was discovered for what it was: Progressive. Not good. TR upset the apple cart with it in 1912. They had to do something, so they did and it quickly brought about almost the end of everything. The New Deal and the war produced a kind of enforced progressive era which kept things running rather well for 75 years. Finally, however, those that fought against it got their way about 10 years ago by underfunding things that they found meddlesome. By doing so, it took about the same amount of time for them to beat the shit out of us as before.

Charlie

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #73 - Oct 11^th, 2011 at 3:33pm

Callico wrote on Oct 10^th, 2011 at 9:43am:

That bumps us back then to the Wilson era.

Another step back and we have the San Francisco earthquake of 1906, which does not involve interstate. The army built over 5500 relief shacks to house about 20,000 and Congress approved a million for relief supplies and tents many lived in for years. Seems kinda proper.

Callico wrote on Oct 10^th, 2011 at 9:43am:

In 1789 the debt assumption of the States by the Federal Government was proper.

There was an alternative motivation for assuming the debt.

There were even some in Abe's own northern party that questioned the constitutionality of the Emancipation Proclamation, called it an "unconstitutional scheme".

Abe simply defined proper himself, he decided to act.

A quote that would be nice to hear today:

Alexander Hamilton knew many Federalists were using their governmental connections to get rich. He did not want to be one of these, clinging long and hard to the classical concepts of leadership.

"There must be some public fools who sacrifice private to public interests at the certainty of ingratitude and obloquy because my vanity whispers I ought to be one of those fools and ought to keep myself in a situation the best calculated to render service."

Aaron Burr was Hamilton's opposite, an opportunist for money-making with his connections from public service, most notorious his Manhattan Co. They dueled, Burr won. I hope this wasn't a precedent for which type of politician prevails.

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Re: We are the 99 percent
Reply #74 - Oct 11^th, 2011 at 4:22pm

Just read some hilarious OWS pickup lines on Twitter:

I, like totally, hate corporate America too!! Care to share my Starbucks, Tweet on my iPad, ride in my Beemer??
What time do you get off not working?
Wow, I have that same Chinese symbol tattoo, and I don't know what it means either!
I'll smuggle you some Starbucks if you comb my lice.
I just got my Pell Grant and my food stamps, let's party!
I have an extra roll of toilet paper in meine rucksack.

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"I have been asked if I have changed in these past 25 years. No, I am the same. Only more so." --Ayn Rand

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