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Question. Just a question. (Read 5693 times)
zacsz
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Question. Just a question.
Nov 14th, 2011 at 2:56am
 
First of all, I have made a post similar to this before but I want to ask it in a different way. If anyone remembers me asking and thinks this is too similar then please tell me because I don't want to be a nuisance but I didn't get the answers I was quite looking for the last time and I think it was just because I didn't ask it the right way.

Without including my whole medical history, my question is, how do you feel about opiates as a short-term, crisis intervention treatment when ALL ELSE HAS FAILED?

Suffice to say I've tried almost everything. I have had some wonderful advice from members on here recently (as expected of course!) and I'm hoping that my long term solution will include giving the oxygen another go and do the whole vitamin regimen. I support, respect, and am open to natural remedies and hope that I can reach a point where they WORK.

In some ways, I am indeed looking for permission. I know it's weird, I'm just such at my wit's end and in many ways I just want someone experienced to tell me it's okay in the short term. I am in a very unusual class of headache sufferers that even respond to these medications. I know how people feel about them on here and honestly I feel the same way. Like I said, I'm hoping ultimately I can find a way to survive using less harmful things. But am I bad for wanting something to help me from literally going into psychosis from all the pain I've been in recently?
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Mike NZ
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #1 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 3:24am
 
We can't give you permission for this, either to do it or not to. This needs to be a decision that you come to in consultation with your doctor.

Whilst for most people, opiates are not a suitable treatment, this does not mean that they are never a suitable treatment, especially for cases where nothing else seems to work and everything possible has been already tried.

Far too often people who are new to CHs are given opiates instead of a preventive and abortive. This has resulted in a lot of people not preventing a lot of their CHs and then having to suffer as the opiates hardly touch the pain of a full blown, non-aborted CH. This is not a good combination when for most people there are better alternatives that work well and avoid the many issues with opiates, like addiction, etc.

I hope this helps.
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zacsz
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #2 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 4:05am
 
Mike,

To explain myself, yes, it's a decision that will ultimately be between my doctor and I. I know you can't give me permission per se, just sometimes these decisions aren't easy ones to make and I didn't mean expressive permission so much as "support from friends in whatever way it can be given."

I wasn't given my own opiates for my headaches until a year and a half after they started. I went to the emergency room 20 times during that period (year and a half) and every time they tried the toridol/benadryl/compazine combo or DHE (and a few other random treatments). They'd also give me oxygen and I learned very quickly to request at the hospital a non-rebreather mask and as high of a flow rate as they could give me. None of that would ever work and it would take 2mg of dilaudid to knock out the beast. Eventually we came to the conclusion that sometimes I need those meds to make it through.

I feel as though at this particular point and time it is logical for me to see if I can be treated with opiates for the time being after I spent a decent amount of time discovering they are logically something that truly helps me. Like I said, I know you can't give me true permission... but sometimes I feel like no one, not even my doctor, understands this bind I'm in because it's just such a sensitive subject in so many ways.

I am hoping eventually I'll find a better preventative treatment than I'm on now and get to the point where I can explore the O2 more and get it to work. I also forwarded my doctor a very helpful e-mail Batch sent me about both more tips for the O2 and the whole vitamin regimen. So if my doc didn't know about that, now he will and I'm totally willing to try it if he's okay. (Can't see why not.) The Verap is just not doing it for me. It worked for a while, but now it's stopped, and I can't increase the dose any more. I made another recent post about sexual side effects from the verap and it's working so poorly to prevent my headaches and the side effects are so bad I'm just done. I don't want to go on opiates forever. Part of my urgency is I am finishing 2 more weeks of college before I have a long break, go home, and see my specialist. I'm lucky I have a very smart, talented and dedicated doctor at my disposal. I know he reads this forum, and may even see this because he obviously knows my name. So as a side note, if you do, thanks for being my (patient) doctor.

Yes, your answer helped a lot. Hope this clarified some things about my purpose for asking.
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« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2011 at 4:12am by N/A »  
 
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LasVegas
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #3 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 6:09am
 
Stay away from Opiates as CH treatment!

For those who are ECH sufferers, Opiates are counter-productive due to the fact that CH's typically occur several times daily, on a daily basis for several weeks, several months.  This is addiction opportunity!

Additionally, Opiates often will not treat the pain effectively.

Lastly, lets pretend the Opiates do work today, tonight, tomorrow, the following day, etc....after a few days of taking Opiates the body adjusts to the Opiates and requires you to take more than previously due to tolerance levels.

Just an opinion from a CH survivor of 32 yrs and FORMER Opiate patient turned addict!
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Wishing everybody at CH.com less pain w/ more productivity in their lives in 2019
 
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zacsz
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #4 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:14am
 
Vegas I will always respect your opinion and I'm not explaining or rationalizing to sway it, but I always like to provide information about my medical history that's relevant to the topic at hand.

I don't want to accuse you of not reading my post carefully enough, but as I mentioned I realize opiates don't work most times for CHers, but I am in a rare group that they do. It has been proven by my experience. If you see what I explained about my ER visits, when I was treated with the dilaudid after the other things all those many times (and still sometimes), my headache just... went away almost immediately after administration... it's not like I coincidentally got the dilaudid at the natural end of the attack every time I was there. I also CANNOT take IV compazine, reglan or zofran anymore because of the anxiety those medications cause via IV so they can't do the complete cocktain and now they usually just give me toridol and dilaudid simultaneously. It's possible it's not just the dilaudid that's helping but maybe I even need it on top of the rest of the stuff (anti inflammatories and whatnot). Maybe I'm in a sh*tty situation (sorry) that my body naturally needs a lot of intervention to handle pain. I don't mean that to hint I have an opiate tolerance-- it's like that for all of my abortives and preventatives too really-- and I would also never take an opiate or any unnatural remedy for every attack of the day. I mentioned in the first post that many times I can just struggle through the first few of the day with no meds because as of this point, there's no sense in me using O2. Gotta try again but doesn't work right now.

My use of opiates for CH is limited to a dose before bed if i have a headache because for me, that will actually kill it and keep it away so I can sleep for four hours! I know it may sound completely incredible and almost unbelievable based on how rarely those meds work for us CHers... but I swear it to be truth. I daresay I should try to find more reading about it, but just anecdotally I don't believe I'm the only CHer to ever find some benefit from occasional opiate therapy.

In addition, I too was treated on opiates for an extended period of time for another unrelated condition. I know many people from other non-CHer support boards who have also been patients turned addicts, but I was on extended release opiate therapy for 5 months and I never, ever missed a dose or took anything extra than what I was truly allowed. And I hope it goes without saying I did not sell them or do anything otherwise illegal. I know there is always a risk of addiction when they're used again, but at least I (really rather unfortunately) have a great deal of previous experience with these meds. Frankly, being on opiates scares me because I know the risks. But it makes me feel better that I have done this before and have exercised extreme control with a difficult class medications to control for so many reasons... and my fear of opiates is far less than my fear of CH in the very short term.

I'm also reiterating this for you, Vegas, just so maybe you won't worry as much about my possible need for these. I am considering this a last ditch, emergency, intervention. I want to be off them as soon as possible. I return home from school in two weeks and can see doctor and can just get off the damn things. I know every day I take them is another risk, but I don't want them as a long term treatment. I just don't know where else to turn right now as they happen to be a class of medications that work for me and maybe 10 other cluster sufferers in the world (exaggeration).

When I go home, I plan on doing everything I can to figure out how to make O2 work for me. And do the vitamin regimen as well. I have tried O2 in a million ways before and failed. But I'm willing to give it a go again, I just logistically can't even try it because of the fact that I return home in 10 days and I can't get a tank out here in time to give it a go. I'm sure I'll find somewhere to get an O2 tank out where my college is if it works, but I have a long winter break to do it at home and test and test until I get it to knock out the beast so I don't need so many damn meds!

The last thing I have to say if I can be totally truthful is that over the last few months this forum has been immensely helpful to me. I like letting you guys know what's up for support and at the same time, I don't want to gain a reputation over my personal need for occasional "opiate interventions," shall we call them. Does that make sense? As a general rule, I say absolutely NO to other CH-ers using opiates! I would never recommend it to someone else, but I just always feel compelled to provide updates because I know the responses will always contain emotional support. So, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about these posts advocating this treatment usually in any way... especially in the long term. My headaches have always been a very unusual case, that's all.

Maybe you understood that and it didn't need explaining, but it was important for me to verbalize.
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« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:20am by N/A »  
 
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Potter
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #5 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:25am
 
You have a problem with the truth.

       Potter
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #6 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:34am
 
Quote:
But am I bad for wanting something to help me from literally going into psychosis from all the pain I've been in recently?


I prefer to answer the questions asked. Please clarify "bad"? lance
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zacsz
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #7 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:35am
 
Potter,

I'm not going to intellectualize or defend myself. All I'm going to do is request you stop making posts like that when others are trying to help me. You know that's inflammatory and upsetting and I would appreciate it if you manned up and just avoided giving input like that.

Thanks.
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zacsz
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #8 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:38am
 
Lance, to clarify, what I meant is opiates have a bad rap on here and I know exactly why. I just... I mean, really I don't want to be seen like an addict. I know it's a concern for everyone and all, but I'm trying to just share my anecdotal story about something that works for me. Not advertise it as something that works for everyone else. I just sometimes feel a bit automatically judged or chided for even *thinking about it.* I think it's easy to come off like an addict justifying himself, and I just wish everyone would appreciate my time and effort into some of these posts to just tell the truth. My truth. I know that no one's opinions on opiates are a personal attack and I know every worry is out of concern, but I don't want to feel like I can't post about my own medical experiences... and anomalies.

Zac
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« Last Edit: Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:41am by N/A »  
 
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #9 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:48am
 
You don't want help,  you want us to feel sorry for you and give your opiate use the O.K.  Ain't gonna happen.

        Potter
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #10 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 8:57am
 
This is the same reply I gave you when you posted this question in July, 2011. It's the most thorough research I've see as far as the use of opiates for CH.

This gentleman posted last year, obviously a meticulous record keeper who appears to have succesfully used this route.

Title: Chronic, Narcotics, Remission
Post by MikeS on Nov 8th, 2010 at 1:59pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



      I have suffered CH for more then 20 years now. I have been Chronic for about 15 years. I have had migraines most of my life, however they were only moderately painful and never caused me to miss work. I started getting CH attacks when I was 33 years old, had 7 children and fortunately at GREAT Wife.  After 3 years of episodic attacks (3-4 weeks a year) my cycles started coming after 6 months, then 3 then they never stopped. I was chronic.   

    After my 3rd Neuro I was in luck. Dr. Savia my Neuro during 10 years of my CH was a very organized and methodical Dr. He took the time to explain each treatment and not only wrote exactly what was done at each Appt but also voice recorded some during and after the visit and transcribed each Appt. We tried Calc. channel blockers, Sansert, Anti seizure meds, Lithium, Prednisone for short bursts, Neurontin, d flow up to 30 lpm),     We did IV DHE, Trigger point injections of Local lidocaine which my wife learned to do. Monthly steroids in the trigger points from the Dr., , Zornif Topomax and many others. Side effects were many and some were serious. O2 which would stop my first attack, however within 2 hrs I would get an attack that O2 helped with about 30% of the time, any other attacks during the day would never respond.(I had someone from the O2 company, who was a friend whose company also did our welding O2), help me configure a mask that would flow up to 30 lpm. Imitrex never helped with a cluster. However Imitrex Injections were great for my migraines After several years of use I became allergic to promethazine and compazine. (I got something called  Tardic Dyskinesia (spelling?) and was in the hospital for a week and I have no memory of anything past the time I was admitted). The above meds did help quit a bit. I could get through most nights without an attack and at my best I would get maybe 16 Attacks a week. The common problem was that even after titrating me to the max dose, I became resistant to the meds that did help. 

     After a  4 week inpatient stay at Diamond Headache clinic they told me that the best I could hope for was maybe a 50% reduction in attacks. They said that even though Clusters & Migraines have little in common they were somehow indirectly feeding off each other making it extremely difficult
to come up with a decent way to help me. 

   Ok now to the opiate treatments. Because my Neuro was such a perfectionist with my records he definitely saw a pattern that clearly showed a Decent response to opiates and even more so Methadone. At Diamond they would give me a Doliphin (methadone) injection which really helped with my attacks. After the 2nd week I found out that dolaphine was a different name for methadone.

  I was now ready to try surgery to freeze a nerve (Trigeminal?) During the first part of the surgery I was to receive stimulation of different nerves or areas of nerves to pinpoint where to go. Upon being wheeled in to the operating room I got a full blown Cluster. The surgeon that brought me in had never actually seen a bad CH.  I couldn't proceed with the surgery without being awake and holding very still while they needed to trigger the nerve receiving the pain from the Ch. This Surgeon was part of a pain clinic that did opiate/methadone
therapy. After getting my records (about a 4 inch stack) they thought that because other methods had not been effective over a long period of time I would make a good candidate for opiate or methadone therapy.  By this time I had read so much against narcotics that I said "No way". He asked me to come back in to discuss other  options. I brought my wife with me.  After a huge a[size=10][/size]mount of info on correctly prescribing and using opiates for long term pain and as much research and reading I could find on the subject my wife suggested I try it.  She was instantly a partner helping and encouraging me every step of the way.

        Dr. Webster (Anesthesiologist who practises  and operates a fairly large clinic devoted only the research in Pain management) had seen several of my attacks and had helped with pain management on several Ch patients. He was only willing to take me as a patient because of the well organized records I had along with the fact that I had tried other types of meds for so long as to show pain management was all I had left.       Dr. Webster had a lot more to offer me then just pain management. He said if I would stay with him and follow exactly what was prescribed he thought I could possibly have far fewer attacks with much less pains. He said if no allergic reactions showed up my side effects would be minimal. After blood and urine test to verify what meds I was using and no illegal drugs. It started.
 
   After 7 months of very very slowly titrating methadone to a certain level, using morphine for breakthrough,  It happened! my CH attacks went from at least 3 a day to sometimes less then 1 each day. Not only did the frequency dramatically decrease, they would come on much slower, with enough time to go home from work (I only live 5 minutes away) or drive for about 20 minutes before the pain was bad enough to have to stop driving. After a year I could work 20-30 hrs a week. I do get some bad days where I miss work a couple days. I also was required to keep a consistant schedule of sleeping and eating times. starting my meds at 5 am and getting out of bed and doing some light work for a couple hours.   The unexpected for me was the very minimal side effects. I never felt high because of the very gradual titrating of my meds. The biggest problem I had was forgetting doses.

      The last 12 months have been very good to me. When I went chronic with my Ch's I noticed a few unexpected changes. One of these was that I could no longer eat anything spicy without a bit of swelling of my tongue and very uncomfortable burning, as if I had eaten a habinero pepper. Even the mildest salsa and ketchup was enough. I loved and ate spicy food all the time prior. About 9 months ago I could easily tolerate somewhat spicy food again and it just kept getting better. I also noticed that my methadone was making me tired. (Something I had never noticed before because of the slow titration the Dr. used). So I went down on the dose waited a few days then went down a little more waited, until I didn't feel tired. If I went down even more after 10 days or so the number of Ch attacks increased until I went back up a little on my dose. Every 20-25 days it would happen again. I was only taking  a little over 30% of what I was taking 7 months earlier. Going down on the methadone gave me some side effects. The worst was cramping of my legs especially my thighs and I was  becoming a bit anxious and moody. I had virtually no urge to take any meds for the withdrawal. My Dr. said that was only possible since I had never exceeded my dosage without his OK therefore keeping the Euphoria at bay.I started using effexor and after 10 weeks I was at dosage my Dr. wanted me to be on. three days latter I didn't get a Ch and 100 days later I still haven't had one. I am off my methadone and haven't used any other narcotics (used for breakthrough) since I have had no Ch.

   I was very fortunate and/or blessed (take your pick). I had a wife who has some medical training, tons of common sense and a willingness to stand by me through it all. I can never repay her. I do try however. I do all the laundry (after she trusted me to? lol), The dishes and anything else I think will make her life a little more pleasant. (Sorry I don't mean to say I am some great kind of husband, I am just saying how much I truly appreciate her).

  Am I cured? maybe not, It has been over 15 years that I have gone any more then 5-6 days without a Ch. And only had 5-6 days in a row Ch free 2-3 times. Did the methadone and opiates cure me? most likely not. Would I use them again? Yes.

Would I recommend this type of treatment to others? No, I would recommend you find the best Ch. Neuro You can and let Him/Her recommend what you should do. Thank's for all the help and encouragement and caring!
MikeS


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"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
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zacsz
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #11 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 9:05am
 
Yes Guiseppi, I held on to that the last time you gave it to me. Have it tucked away in my files. I know it's not out of the question for it to be successful, but man I wish the O2 worked better. I really don't like how opiates make me feel... just get knocked out, but if I truly need to function I can still do it better than if I'm in pain, you know? Can't wait to start the D3 regime...
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #12 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 9:40am
 
The Mad Viking wrote on Nov 18th, 2008 at 4:22pm:
Using Opiates Like Morphine to Treat Cluster Headaches

My history with morphine started some 5 years ago when I was forced to reduce my use of imitrex as an abortive for my cluster headaches.  It was becoming less and less effective, and top of that, I was having frequent attacks of chest pains due to angina as a result of a heart attack I suffered in 2001, when they implanted my first coronary artery stent.

My first line of defense up until then had always been O2 and up to seven imitrex injections a day, followed by a trip to the ER and morphine injections when that defense failed to stop the really bad attacks. The oxygen therapy available to me when I was first diagnosed was 7 to 9 liters/minute and although it worked for minor attacks while I was awake, that flow rate was useless when the attacks came at night while I was sleeping.  

Around a year and a half after I was diagnosed with cluster headaches, I was able to get the oxygen prescription changed to 15 liters/minute.  That proved to be slightly more effective during the day, but again, it was not effective in aborting the high Kip-scale night attacks.  On top of that, my cardiologist prescribed nitroglycerine for my angina attacks.  While the nitroglycerine was effective in reducing the chest pains, it was also an obvious trigger for more frequent cluster headache attacks and it made their onset even more rapid than they already were.

I didn’t know what to do so I finally asked my GP if I could try morphine injections at home because I just had to have something to take the edge off the pain of my cluster headache attacks.  I can remember my GP saying, “We have to be careful or we both could be in trouble.”  I felt the morphine injections “worked” as expected, but in reality, they only took the edge off the pain of my cluster headaches to make them more bearable and did nothing to abort the actual cluster headache attacks.  This treatment was neither good nor lasting, but at least I could function.  At that point, the morphine made me honestly feel I had control of my life again.   For the first time in years, I finally had a happy life again with my family, but the stage was set for a perfect storm and my dance with the devil had begun.  

In looking back with 20/20 hindsight and a clear head, I had become dependant on morphine in a matter of months after starting the injections.  Only Bente and my GP knew I was using morphine, but neither of them realized the extent I was using it to get through each day.  I had become a functional addict with a nearly unlimited supply of morphine.  In the beginning I was using one or two 1.5 ml morphine injections a day at 10mg/ml.  By the time I entered detox five years later, I was dosing with four to six 1.5 ml morphine injections a day at a concentration of 40mg/ml.

Shortly after I started the morphine injections, I suffered two more heart attacks in rapid succession over a five-month period.   At that point I was seeing my GP, my cardiologist, and my neurologist of over 20 years, but only my GP was aware of my involvement with morphine.

The sequence of events associated with each heart attack didn’t help.  What is the first that the EMTs give you when they respond to your call saying you’re having heart attack?  Morphine, even before they start checking you.  Then they take you to the ER at the hospital and what do they give you when you arrive in the ER?  Yes, more morphine.  And if they have to treat another higher priority case while you’re lying there, because you were not lucky enough to be first in line, they give you more morphine.

Then, when you wake up in the recovery room, what is the very first they give you?  Yes, more morphine.

And “lucky me”!  As a chronic cluster head, they gave me more morphine, several times a day.  Totally, up to 8 morphine injections a day.  While all this was happening, I still refused to admit even to myself, that I was addicted to morphine.

By the time I had suffered my third heart attack and had the third coronary stent implanted, I had become a master of disguise in hiding the fact that I was using morphine regularly each day from my friends and family.  I had also learned that if I ran out of morphine and the withdrawal symptoms started before I could get a refill, all I had to do was call the hospital and let them know I was having chest pains and the EMTs would deliver the morphine faster that the pizza man could deliver pizza.  At this point, not a day went by without morphine injections and each day revolved around them.  I had become a functional morphine user and was extremely adept at hiding that fact from everyone including myself.

I received excellent treatment at the two hospitals in USA when I was admitted for my fourth heart attack in July of this year, while staying with Pete and Joyce in Virginia following the conference in Dallas. Plaque had built up in the third stent I had been given to the point where arterial plaque was blocking 70% of the blood flow through my right coronary artery.  The before and after video the cardiologist sent me from the cath lab was sobering.  Although that heart attack was very real and very serious, I was still given morphine for my cluster headache attacks.

Throughout this five-year period, my cluster headache attacks continued, usually at a rate of 3 to 5 a day and some times higher.  During the 2007 Clustercompagniet Conference in Trondheim, Chuck made a presentation on the demand valve therapy he was using as a part of the pilot study Pete was running to determine it’s effectiveness.   Chuck’s description of this therapy was so convincing, I prevailed on our local oxygen supplier to loan me a demand valve system.  The demand valve and therapy Pete developed made a tremendous improvement in my ability to abort cluster headache attacks during the day, but some night attacks were still a problem.  Despite my claims to all about using oxygen as my first line of defense for my cluster headache attacks, it was morphine I reached for first when these attacks hit then the oxygen if I used it at all.

By the time Pete arrived in Oslo last September, I needed a morphine injection just to get to the airport to pick him up.  I even had to take a shot to be able to go to the store just to buy a pack of cigarettes.  That’s when it all started to unravel and the wheels began falling off my wagon.  I had run out of morphine the day Pete arrived, but was determined to make the trip to Haugesund without it.  I recall telling Pete the night before we left that I was afraid I had become addicted to morphine, but still clung to the story line that I only used it “as needed” for my cluster headaches.  I know that sounded like a good rationale to me, but it was clear from his comments, Pete wasn’t buying it.

Later that evening around 11 PM, the withdrawal pain had gotten severe and it became clear the trip to Haugesund would be impossible without morphine, so I called the hospital and told them I thought I was having another heart attack.  As usual, the EMTs arrived with the morphine injection and the withdrawal pains started to subside.  I received a second shot in the ambulance on the way to the hospital, and a third at the hospital while waiting for the cardiologist.  As the EKG revealed no sign of a heart attack, they assumed it was only angina and released me early the next morning.  The trip to Haugesund was uneventful, but after two nights staying with Ole Orre and his family in Sauda, I had again started into withdrawal.

By the time we arrived at the symposium site in Haugesund the next day, I realized what was happening and finally admitted to myself that I was no longer in control, the morphine was.  To make matters worse, on top of the withdrawal, I was sure I was having a nervous breakdown.  I begged a dear friend who suffers from migraines for anything that would help, and as it was clear I looked like death warmed over with a bad case of the shakes, she gave me six sobril and a couple valium tablets.  That helped calm my withdrawal symptoms enough so that I could at least perform my duties at the symposium as expected, but the cat was out of the bag, and there were now several people who knew just how badly I had become addicted to morphine.  

I took the opportunity to speak privately with Dr. Monstad about my problem with morphine while in Haugesund, but the combination of sobril and valium had masked my withdrawal symptoms so well, it must have been clear to him, there was no real sense of urgency.

Had I been smart, I would have called the pharmacy and told them to cancel the prescription, but NO – morphine was running what was left of my life. I did relatively well, while my dear friend Pete was with us after returning from Haugesund, but as soon as he left for the airport and his flight home, the very first thing I did was to go to the pharmacy to get even more morphine and started to shoot up again.

The next month was a rollercoaster of emotions marked with short euphoric highs from the morphine and bouts of depression every time I realized what had become of my life all spiced with moments of fear over the thought of going through detox.  I knew I had to do something.  After speaking with several of my closest friends who were aware of my addiction to morphine and who all said it was good that I wanted to go into detox, I scheduled an appointment with my GP in the hopes he would be able to have me admitted for detox.  

To my surprise, my GP passed me off to a pain specialist who I saw a few days later.  He sent me off with a prescription for oxycontin 80mg X 2+ cataflam 50mg X 3 to detox at home, but I had to wait for my disability check to arrive in order to buy the medications.  It seems that our method of social medicine here in Norway that is so good at collecting the tax to keep it running, and it will give you all the morphine you want, but once you become addicted to it, you’ve got to buy the detox medications out of pocket.

When I explained what was happening to Pete, Pĺl, and Oliver, they all told me in no uncertain terms, that this was NOT the way to detox, it cannot be done at home, and that I needed professional help by people skilled in working with people addicted to opiates through the entire detox process and follow up therapy.  They also called the pain specialist who had sent me home to detox “Dr. Feelgood” and quack, along with a few other names I can’t repeat.  What I didn’t know at the time was that these three were meeting on Skype at least twice a day along with Chuck and Michael to work out a plan of action to have me admitted to a proper detox facility.

They were right.  A few days after starting the detox process at home I was a physical and emotional train wreck in progress…  Somehow Pĺl managed to get hold of Dr. Monstad who agreed to see me the following day.   When I arrived at Dr. Monstad’s office I must have been a sad sight.  He took one look at me, shook his head in disbelief and said, “Jesus Christ, Svenn you really need help.”  The first thing he did, was write me a prescription for sobril and then he told me to stop taking the oxycontin and cataflam.  He also said he would have me admitted me to a detox facility as soon as a bed became available.  Three days later I was admitted for detox

The 2-week stay at the detox facility was something I would not wish on my worst enemy and I have learned my lessons.  As Pete kept most of you up to date on my status with daily SITREPS, I’ll spare you the details of my stay at the detox facility.  What I can say at this point is my recovery from morphine addiction is still in progress and likely to be so for some time to come.  Although I feel so much better physically, the memory of morphine still lingers.

There are several lessons to be learned from my story, but the most important is simple, opiates like morphine are NOT a medication for cluster headaches.  Obviously, in extreme cases, opiates like morphine, can be administered as a temporary intervention, but only under controlled conditions by competent medical professionals.  The frequency of cluster headache attacks and continued use of opiates as a method of intervention is a recipe for disaster with a very predictable end point.  Once your brain becomes dependant on opiates, words like control, strength, and will power are meaningless.  Your brain will make you do anything to get more.  I have promised myself NEVER again.

Opiates do NOT stop a cluster headache attack.  They only mask or take the edge off the pain.  

Oxygen therapy administered with a demand valve or with a non-rebreather mask at flow rates high enough to support hyperventilation is a very effective abortive if used early, properly, and there are no other medical conditions that interfere with it.  Oxygen therapy is also very safe and it can be used in conjunction with triptans to actually abort the cluster headache attack and stop the pain.

By telling my story I really hope you understand that opiates like morphine are not the medication for us, and not something you should play with.

Svenn



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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #13 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 10:59am
 
Sorry, Potter, but I have to tell you your aggressiveness is so unhelpful you are making me feel unwelcome here. While I don't expect everyone to say "go for it," I don't feel you're handling this in a mature matter at all. If you're going to attack me every time I make a post, I'm going to move on to somewhere I can find support. Your two other posts were useless inflammatory one liners and your other big quote seemed like a scare tactic. That guy had a serious issue which is something you're pinning incorrectly on me for wanting to feel better. 

Thank you to all who have helped me the last 6 months here, and if you care to check in you may message me for my e-mail. I'm not okay with the additional stress caused by inappropriately inflammatory responses right now. Maybe I'll come back when I feel better. Maybe I'm misreading. But it's making me upset, so I'm taking care of myself by leaving... plain and simple.

You're all correct. This is a decision between my doctor and I. So fuck it, I am signing out. Sorry if language gets me banned. Don't care at this point.
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #14 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:01am
 
I can't find any info. about who is treating you? Headache specialist? What is his experience with headache?
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #15 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:02am
 
I'm a junkie.  Every junkie wants some vindication for using.

         Potter
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #16 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:03am
 
Sorry Potter, then get a hold of yourself, not me.

Bob:
Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

Dr. Lawrence Newman.
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #17 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:08am
 
Please don't leave so quick....People that have become addicted to opiates have a knee jerk reaction to this issue, people that have had even a somewhat positive reaction are usually hesitant to even talk about it...People are scared they are going to say "yeah, worked for me..." because they know SO many people become junkies, and they don't want to think they have caused you to fall down that path.  I'm writing a bit more about this right now--but I wanted to throw it out there that we're not ALL calling you a junkie and we are here to help you.  Unfortunately, some people on this board seem to make it a point to antagonize people who have had different experiences than they have had.  Only solution is to laugh it off and say "wow, that dude just seems pissed at the world"  Wish we could help everyone with everything, but that one seems pretty resistant to help.
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #18 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:11am
 
Well thanks for the sentiment Ricardo, I was very angry a little while ago and you hit the nail on the head why. I probably won't really leave, but I just expected a few more responses like yours from some of the quality members here because I tried so hard to make myself clear that I'm not just some junky.

I have more to say to all of that eventually, but it's tiring to talk in circles. There's the link for everyone for Doc... dunno what impression you'll get from that, but I think I'm in very competent hands.
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #19 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:47am
 
Quote:
Lance, to clarify, what I meant is opiates have a bad rap on here and I know exactly why. I just... I mean, really I don't want to be seen like an addict. I know it's a concern for everyone and all, but I'm trying to just share my anecdotal story about something that works for me. Not advertise it as something that works for everyone else. I just sometimes feel a bit automatically judged or chided for even *thinking about it.* I think it's easy to come off like an addict justifying himself, and I just wish everyone would appreciate my time and effort into some of these posts to just tell the truth. My truth. I know that no one's opinions on opiates are a personal attack and I know every worry is out of concern, but I don't want to feel like I can't post about my own medical experiences... and anomalies.


I really feel for you.  When I first came on this board I was saying some of the same things (although I quickly figured out that I shouldn't because, as you've seen, you'll get called a junkie and told that all your problems are from the opiates) It's not hard to see why people that have become addicted to these drugs will have that kind of reaction..but it sure doesn't seem helpful to tell people stuff like "you have a problem with the truth"  Anyone that can tell the "truth" about someone from their posts on here should be in the carny's doing psychic tricks for cash.  I'm not about to tell you the truth of your situation, you are the only one that knows that. 

I ended up with a script for opiates after finding I was going through as many triptans as they would allow and still ending up in the ER every month.  For about a year I used them as a back up for if my triptans did not work or if I ran out.   I think the most important thing is to never ever let the opiates be your first line of defense.  If you do otherwise, I agree that they will stop working and only lead to addiction. (I eventually figured out that the real reason I needed opiates was to deal with the constant rebounds I was getting from too many TRIPTANS)

It's interesting that you talk about the effectiveness of the opiates if you take one before going to bed.  Probably a long shot, but could it just be helping you sleep?  I feel like a sleep study is always a good idea with hard to treat clusters, regardless.

  I found I can take less opiates (usually) if I combine it with Orphenadrine, an antihistamine and NMDA receptor antagonist--This is not an uncommon reaction that people with other chronic pain issues use to their advantage.  And I'm with you on the feeling that triptans give me worse rebounds than narcotics.  Obviously this is not the case with most people, but I guess we are all just different.   A major help was intranasal ketamine (although this is not a physically addictive drug, It still has been shown to be addictive nonetheless, and a drug of abuse, still need to tread carefully...More info on my Ketamine thread that I posted)  Since I have had the Ketamine prescribed I have not needed one dose of opiates. 

But the REAL thing that seemed to turn the tide for me was the Morning Glory seeds that I dosed up on a few months ago.  Have you considered the "clusterbuster" method?  Psilocybin and LSA containing seeds have gotten some people completely pain free for months at a time...I have not been pain free, but both substances have seemed to give me less severe attacks, less often.  I know that you have said that you at one point had a psychiatric disorder, so maybe this isn't an option, but the seeds have been potent headache medicine for many people, and really don't trip you out much, many people go to sleep and never notice the "trip".

All in all, don't let me people run you off here, and keep us posted!  Lots of people have come on this board a complete mess, only to find real solutions that help them get to a place they can deal with.

-Ricardo
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #20 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 5:36pm
 
Ricardo wrote on Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:47am:
I really feel for you.  When I first came on this board I was saying some of the same things (although I quickly figured out that I shouldn't because, as you've seen, you'll get called a junkie and told that all your problems are from the opiates) It's not hard to see why people that have become addicted to these drugs will have that kind of reaction..but it sure doesn't seem helpful to tell people stuff like "you have a problem with the truth"  Anyone that can tell the "truth" about someone from their posts on here should be in the carny's doing psychic tricks for cash.  I'm not about to tell you the truth of your situation, you are the only one that knows that. 


Exactly!

Ricardo wrote on Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:47am:
I ended up with a script for opiates after finding I was going through as many triptans as they would allow and still ending up in the ER every month.  For about a year I used them as a back up for if my triptans did not work or if I ran out.   I think the most important thing is to never ever let the opiates be your first line of defense.  If you do otherwise, I agree that they will stop working and only lead to addiction. (I eventually figured out that the real reason I needed opiates was to deal with the constant rebounds I was getting from too many TRIPTANS)


For the third time, exactly. I get worse rebounds from triptans than opiates. For a while, I was doing the same thing as you described- almost unavoidably going through my triptan script and then being in such bad shape after I needed opiates to cover THOSE rebounds. Opiates are never, ever my first line of defense with two exceptions. If I have a real hard 24 hours and take 2 doses of zomig, I can't have anymore. Normally I don't like to treat 3 headaches in 24 hours but sometimes I just can't take it. Those times I use my opiate first, and otherwise only if I run through my triptan script... don't always go through it anymore. The opiates are to save me hundreds of dollars going to the ER to for a tiny bit of IV medication and nothing else. Do my opiates at home prevent that from ever happening? No, of course not. Sometimes we need IV intervention. A lot of us are lucky we don't need opiates to help and honestly, I'm jealous.

Ricardo wrote on Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:47am:
It's interesting that you talk about the effectiveness of the opiates if you take one before going to bed.  Probably a long shot, but could it just be helping you sleep?  I feel like a sleep study is always a good idea with hard to treat clusters, regardless.


Yes and yes. I have a diagnosed sleep condition and I take sleep medication. I've had a sleep study a while ago; my body is unable to get deep sleep right now. Some day I hope to stop having to get doped up to sleep, but I'm physically incapable right now. (I never take my sleep medication and opiates together obviously!! or any CNS ever.) I think because of that fact the opiates work in almost miraculous ways for me sometimes. If I take them, they abort the attack. Not mask, abort. Many times the only dose I take in a day is before bed, and if I need it for an attack not only does it get rid of it but they do make me sleepy and help me sleep better as a result. In addition, sometimes I've gotten woken up from the "surprise" of feeling another attack come on while still feeling the effects of the opiates and even though it disturbs me from sleep, the meds help it from coming on. I don't want to use opiates as a preventative and they're not appropriate medications as a primary treatment for sleep but they have other coincidental benefits to me because of my other health concerns.


In regards to the rest of your post, I dont need to quote it. I've also sent you an e-mail. Thanks ricardo.
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #21 - Nov 14th, 2011 at 11:25pm
 
PS....Opiates triggered my 6 year remission Angry Cry Embarrassed Undecided Lips Sealed
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #22 - Nov 15th, 2011 at 7:51am
 
Quote:
Lance, to clarify, what I meant is opiates have a bad rap on here and I know exactly why. I just... I mean, really I don't want to be seen like an addict. I know it's a concern for everyone and all, but I'm trying to just share my anecdotal story about something that works for me. Not advertise it as something that works for everyone else. I just sometimes feel a bit automatically judged or chided for even *thinking about it.* I think it's easy to come off like an addict justifying himself, and I just wish everyone would appreciate my time and effort into some of these posts to just tell the truth. My truth. I know that no one's opinions on opiates are a personal attack and I know every worry is out of concern, but I don't want to feel like I can't post about my own medical experiences... and anomalies. Zac


If that is what you meant in asking the question, then no, you are not "bad." Hell, Zac, there are documented instances of people with severe and unremitting trigeminal disorders who are put into chemical comas simply because their pain is so intense and so unremitting. It was that pain which drove me to the brink of considering suicide a few years ago. Both of those seem to me to be less than desirable responses to the need for pain mitigation.

Personally, I have not found any opiate (and I have tried them in the past) which could even touch the pain or even lower the threshhold of pain. Morphine, for example, has no effect when I'm getting hit. I was hospitalized and pumped full of several drugs which resulted in losing a week of conscious memory, three months of emotional and physical recovery, and ultimately a return to the same pattern of CHs. Maybe you will have a different experience.

If you are not seeking the kind of engagment you get then why not simply post the actual prescriptive treatment from your doctor (who I am assuming is leading you in this direction) and what sort of results they bring? No one will fault you for this. But leading questions, such as "am I bad for wanting this" or whatever are just the sort of thing that makes us think you are seeking permission, or affirmation.

I suspect we have all tried stuff that doesn't work, and occasionally we stumble onto something that does. I'm looking forward to controlled studies on the use of ketamine as Ricardo has posted. It could be interesting.

In the meantime, I do pray you will find relief from pain. No one wants to live like this. Blessings. lance
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #23 - Nov 15th, 2011 at 8:10am
 
wimsey1 wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 7:51am:
If you are not seeking the kind of engagment you get then why not simply post the actual prescriptive treatment from your doctor (who I am assuming is leading you in this direction) and what sort of results they bring? No one will fault you for this. But leading questions, such as "am I bad for wanting this" or whatever are just the sort of thing that makes us think you are seeking permission, or affirmation.


Everything you said makes perfect sense. As I mentioned, in many ways I was seeking permission... but not for any bad reason, just because I was in a bad place. And like I said sometimes support from friends is equally as important as what my doctor thinks I should do. Everyone is right; if my doctor thinks I should do this and it helps... it doesn't matter. I hope I don't have to do it for very long but it just. doesn't. matter. Not in the way I was worried it did matter, if that makes sense. I will wait now until I can say "___ worked for me and I feel better!" or, "___ worked for a little bit and now I'm happy on the D3 regimen." Honestly, at the moment, it doesn't make a difference which point I get to.

Thanks for the response. I am feeling a little better today. Still in pain but just kind of handling it better. We all know some days are better than others.
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Re: Question. Just a question.
Reply #24 - Nov 15th, 2011 at 8:22am
 
Quote:
wimsey1 wrote on Nov 15th, 2011 at 7:51am:
If you are not seeking the kind of engagment you get then why not simply post the actual prescriptive treatment from your doctor (who I am assuming is leading you in this direction) and what sort of results they bring? No one will fault you for this. But leading questions, such as "am I bad for wanting this" or whatever are just the sort of thing that makes us think you are seeking permission, or affirmation.


Everything you said makes perfect sense. As I mentioned, in many ways I was seeking permission... but not for any bad reason, just because I was in a bad place. And like I said sometimes support from friends is equally as important as what my doctor thinks I should do. Everyone is right; if my doctor thinks I should do this and it helps... it doesn't matter. I hope I don't have to do it for very long but it just. doesn't. matter. Not in the way I was worried it did matter, if that makes sense. I will wait now until I can say "___ worked for me and I feel better!" or, "___ worked for a little bit and now I'm happy on the D3 regimen." Honestly, at the moment, it doesn't make a difference which point I get to.

Thanks for the response. I am feeling a little better today. Still in pain but just kind of handling it better. We all know some days are better than others.


D3 regimen has done absolutely nothing for me and have been on it for almost 3 months.  Waiting on this to work as your sole treatment i've found is a tremendous mistake, as starting traditional proven preventable treatments immediately is honestly your best bet.  However, who knows about the anti-inflammatory regimen until you give it a try, might work for you as it has many others, keep at it in hopes it does provide relief.

Just keep in mind that there could, most likely, be a third quote you might say..."should've listened to all the experienced CH'ers on that website and stayed the hell away from opiates as it has created addiction and now i'm stuck in rehab and still have CH's"...just sayin Undecided

Glad to read today is a little better day for you. 
Good Luck Zac!
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