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Questions / Opinions (Read 2485 times)
amct15
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Questions / Opinions
Feb 12th, 2012 at 3:16pm
 
Hello my fellow Clusterheads

  I haven't posted in a long time, but visit/read often.  I was hoping to get some input/opinions from folks.   I've had CH's for about 8 years now, was really rough in the early days.  But with some treatment it seemed to settle in to a bit calmer episodic pattern.   For a few years at least I settled into what largely was a 3 month on, 3 month off rotation.   Using verapamil at 360mg now, was 240mg for a while a couple years back.   Also take 100mg of zonegran, and of course o2 & imitrex.  However, I am now currently in month 9 of what I'm considering the current cycle.  I did have about 10 days break in late November, but if that was a break between 2 distinct cycles it's the shortest I've ever experienced, and the 2nd cruelest thing I've experienced next to CH themselves.  The o2 isn't working quite as well as it used to (takes much longer, and the HA just seems to keep coming back).   While I know I'm not there yet, admittedly - I fear I've gone chronic (God bless those of you that are, it's been plenty maddening even at part time).   

  I've really had a pretty tough time with it this go around, since the cycle just keeps going and going.  Have lost my mind a couple times, and really broke down - been a long time since that happened to me, and I pretty well put a good scare into the wife in doing so.  I don't like upsetting her over it, but I know she feels pretty helpless about it sometimes. 

  I'm wondering if anyone has had their episodic patterns change quite drastically - something to the extent of going from a typically 12 to 14 week cycle to something that now seems to be 9 months & counting?   If so, any chance I can keep my fingers crossed that if the cycle breaks, maybe by the grace of God, I'll get an equivalent time off to follow?    And, is the "o2 resistance" that I now seem to experience indicative of anything, a transition to chronic perhaps?   Do o2, verap, trex, have the same effectiveness with episodic & chronic, or is there a noticeable difference?   

  I've been seeing the same neuro for about 6 or 7 years, but I'm at the stage where I think I need to look elsewhere, at a minimum for a second opinion on treatment.   I'm in NJ, not too far from Manhattan, so I've been considering the 3 doctors recommended on the OUCH site - Green, Newman, & Mauskop.  I was hopeful that some may have some input on these Dr's and/or recommendations.   

Thanks to all... even if only just for listening. 

Andrew
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ttnolan
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #1 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 4:12pm
 
I feel for you Andrew, I started out just like you, well behaved cycles, easily handled by the drugs I had dialed in.
Since then I have it change in many ways. The marathon cycles... my last year... 5 months high cycle, followed by a three week break and right back on it. So it is not unusual, just means it is time to mix it up. A new doc is always the best way to do that... but find a "headache specialist", and one who specializes in CH as well as migraines.
As for the O2, it just may be you need better flow. If you don't have it, order the O2ptimask from this site, and make sure to get a regulator that puts out 25lpm.
Be sure to check the sister site Clusterbusters.com for non traditional treatments, if you are comfortable with that kind of thing, I highly recommend it.
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Guiseppi
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #2 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 4:26pm
 
Ouch. The beasts tendency to morph is one of his crueler features. In my 20's and 30's, they were setting the atomic clock by my cycles. 2 per year, Spring and fall, 2-3 month cycles with a 2-3 month remission period. Hit my 40's and beasty started dancing all over the board. 2 year remissions, 8 month cycles, it sucks. Undecided That bieng said,

Oxygen started to lose it's effectiveness for me last cycle. Scared the crap outta me because 02 had rarely failed me in the past. At Batch's suggestion, I started the original "Batch regimen." It was magnesium, calcium citrate and zinc, washed down with fresh lemonade, up to 4 times a day. I never went above 3X a day and within about 30 hours 02 was knocking them down again. Apparently a change in your arterial ph will make you less succeptible to attacks.

Since then, Batch has refined the regimen considerably, resulting in many people reducing the number and intensity of their hits, and even many going pain free. Please go to the meds section and read the post "123 pain free days and I think I know why." I'm on this regimen permanently now and am hoping to never see the beast again.(I know I'm an eternal optimist!) Too many people are experiencing too much relief for it to be coincidence. The regimen itself is a healthy one even for people without CH so it's definitely worth a look see. 

Joe
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amct15
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #3 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 6:08pm
 
Thanks very much.  It's at least a bit of comfort for me to know that others have had cycles change in frequency/duration much like what I'm experiencing now.   It used to be some light at the end of the tunnel that I could cling to, much like each individual HA, I would know at least an approximate timing for the end. But now, I have no clue when the end is... maybe tomorrow, maybe next month, maybe next year... 

I've seen you refer to the demand valve for o2 in the past.  I do currently use the optimask, but have been thinking about getting a demand valve system.  I know it can cost quite a bit more, but if it helps more... I'm all for it.   I'd cut off a finger if someone told me it would stop my headaches... so what's a few bucks.   Given the higher flow rate, yet "conserving" nature of the apparatus - I'm wondering if you've noticed that an o2 tank lasts longer for you, or goes quicker.   At 12-15 lpm, when riding a higher hit rate, I burn through an H-tank in about 2 weeks.   An H-tank at that rate is about 8 hrs worth.  Do you think the key to the demand valve is the much higher flow rate?

I did start trying Batch's regimen, can't say that I noticed any improvement from it.  But I think I need to give it another try, perhaps with ramping up the dosages a bit.   I've also just started to give melatonin another try.  Gave it a shot a few years ago and it seemed to actually bring on more wake-up hits.    I guess I'll keep trying anything/everything, including a different Dr.  If anyone has any opinion on the three Dr's I mentioned, the input would be appreciated.   

thanks again.

Andrew
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Guiseppi
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #4 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 6:29pm
 
I've always used a demand valve so I can't compare. I use E-Tanks and an abort runs thru about 3-400 pounds of air so i get up to 8 aborts per e-tank.

Joe
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #5 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 6:34pm
 
If you are moving into a chronic pattern it's surely time to get with a headache specialist and review your treatment program with fresh eyes.
====
J Headache Pain. 2005 Feb;6(1):3-9. Epub 2005 Jan 25.

Chronic cluster headache: a review.

Favier I, Haan J, Ferrari MD.


Department of Neurology, K5-Q Leiden University Medical Centre, 9600, 2300 RC Leiden, The Netherlands.

Cluster headache (CH) is a rare but severe headache disorder characterised by repeated unilateral head pain attacks accompanied by ipsilateral autonomic features. In episodic CH, there are periods of headache attacks with pain-free intervals of weeks, months or years in between. A minority of patients have the chronic form, without pain-free intervals between the headache attacks. Chronic CH can occur as primary or secondary chronic CH; the rarest form is episodic CH arising from chronic CH. In this article, we give a review of the chronic forms of CH and focus on demographics, clinical manifestations, social habits, predictive factors, head injury, genetics, neuroimaging and therapy. IT IS REMARKABLE THAT LITTLE IS KNOWN ABOUT RISK FACTORS THAT MAKE CH CHRONIC.

Publication Types:
Review

PMID: 16362185 [PubMed] 
=====
Curr Treat Options Neurol. 2010 Nov 24.

Management of Chronic Cluster Headache.
Leone M, Franzini A, Proietti Cecchini A, Mea E, Broggi G, Bussone G.

Pain Neuromodulation Unit, Department of Neurology, Headache Center, Carlo Besta Neurological Institute Foundation, Via Celoria 11, 20133, Milano, Italy, leone@istituto-besta.it.

Abstract
OPINION STATEMENT: Primary cluster headache (CH) is an excruciatingly severe pain condition. Several pharmacologic agents are available to treat chronic CH, but few double-blind, randomized clinical trials have been conducted on these agents in recent years, and the quality of the evidence supporting their use is often low, particularly for preventive agents. We recommend sumatriptan or oxygen to abort ongoing headaches; the evidence available to support their use is good (Class I). Ergotamine also appears to be an effective abortive agent, on the basis of experience rather than trials. We consider verapamil and lithium to be first-line preventives for chronic CH, although the trial evidence is at best Class II. Steroids are clearly the most effective and quick-acting preventive agents for chronic CH, but long-term steroid use carries a risk of several severe adverse effects. We therefore recommend steroids only if verapamil, lithium, and other preventive agents are ineffective. In rare cases, patients experience multiple daily cluster headaches for years and are also refractory to all medications. These patients almost always develop severe adverse effects from chronic steroid use. Such patients should be considered for neurostimulation. Occipital nerve stimulation is the newest and least invasive neurostimulation technique and should be tried first; the evidence supporting its use is encouraging. Hypothalamic stimulation is more invasive and can be performed only in specialist neurosurgical centers. Published experience suggests that about 60% of patients with chronic CH obtain long-term benefit with hypothalamic stimulation.

PMID: 21107766 [PubMed]
===
Title:  Double Blind Comparison of Lithium and Verapamil in Cluster Headache Prophylaxis 
Author: Bussone G, Leone M, et al.
Date:  Posted: January 2010
Source:  Headache  30:411-417, 1990
Chronic Cluster Headache (CCH) treatment is troublesome; since there are no pain-free periods, it must be continuous. The most effective CCH prophylactic drug today is lithium carbonate but long-term use of this drug is limited by the possibility of side effects. Recently, calcium antagonists have been successfully employed to prevent migraine, and preliminary studies also indicate that verapamil in particular is an efficacious treatment for CCH. We have conducted a multicenter trial employing a double-dummy, double blind, cross-over protocol, comparing verapamil with the established efficacy of lithium carbonate, in preventing CCH attacks. BOTH LITHIUM CARBONATE AND VERAPAMIL WERE EFFECTIVE IN PREVENTING CCH BUT VERAPAMIL CAUSED FEWER SIDE EFFECTS and had a shorter latency period. We did not observe any correlation between plasma levels of the two drugs and their clinical efficacy. Both the drugs tested here may exert their effect by restoring a normal inhibitory tone to the pain modulating pathways from the trigemino-vascular system, a circuit putatively implicated in CCH.
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amct15
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #6 - Feb 12th, 2012 at 6:58pm
 
Thank you for the information.   Regarding the E-tank, I have used them in the past as well, but was going through them so quickly, the H-tank home delivery really made sense for me.   At this stage, with the amount of time it takes to treat an individual HA (approx 20 min), I'd estimate I'd get 2, maybe 3, aborts out of an E-tank.  Used be able to to clear an attack in about 10 minutes.   



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LasVegas
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #7 - Feb 13th, 2012 at 2:28am
 
amct15,
The only flow rate I read you referenced was 12-15 lpm, is this correct?  If so, you will find faster aborts with higher flow rates. 

To hyperventilate, one needs at least 25 lpm.  I use 40 lpm sometimes.  Then to avoid a re-attack, stay on the o2 AFTER the abort for an addtl 5 or 10 minutes breathing normally at lower flow rates such as 15 lpm or 10 lpm.

Search the board archives on Dr. Newman.  I recall seeing posts by NY'ers discussing his office and believe it was favorable.

Good Luck! Wink

Gregg in Las Vegas
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Wishing everybody at CH.com less pain w/ more productivity in their lives in 2019
 
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wimsey1
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #8 - Feb 13th, 2012 at 8:19am
 
I went from episodic to chronic. I noticed two things: first, the meds I used while episodic were not effective (cafergot, neurontin, etc) and the verapamil did not return to effectiveness until I substantially increased it from 240mg/day to 480mg/day, and now at 640mg/day. The second thing I noticed was the O2 while effective at 15lpm while episodic, became less effective. When I switched to the H tank with a demand valve system, I found I could, and still can, abort in less than 3 minutes as a rule. Coupled with an energy drink, the O2 abort rates extended the life of my tank. How long it lasts depends on how many hits I'm getting throughout the day and night. I never go anywhere without my E tank and 25lpm regulator. That only gives me 2-3 aborts, but it's a stop gap measure for use away from my beloved big green monster. Hope this helps. Blessings. lance
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amct15
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #9 - Feb 13th, 2012 at 7:16pm
 
Thank you for the additional input.  Yes, I've predominantly been utilizing a flow at 12-15 lpm.  My current regulator only goes up to 15 lpm - although it does seem to dial past it a bit.  I think I will be doing some "shopping" for a demand valve system.  Just got a price today from Linde/Lifegas - $150 for the regulator and $500 for the valve.  You mentioned the energy drink, I've not yet given any of those a try.  My concern is the caffeine actually keeping me awake and throwing off my sleep pattern.    I have to keep a pretty regular sleep schedule or the beast really gets angry.   As for the "green monster"... I fondly refer to my tank as the ballistic missile...
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wimsey1
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Reply #10 - Feb 15th, 2012 at 8:06am
 
I don't use an energy drink at night for the reasons you mention. When I have nights like last night (hit at 11:30pm, 12:20am, and 1:30am) I took an imitrex shot and aborted with O2. My rule is...three in a row, at night interrupting sleep, and I'll use Migranal or Imitrex, depending. Blessings. lance
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LasVegas
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Re: Questions / Opinions
Reply #11 - Feb 15th, 2012 at 11:22am
 
Lance,
You are very supportive of others despite suffering so much.  I have much respect for you, Hang tough!
-Gregg in Las Vegas
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wimsey1
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Reply #12 - Feb 16th, 2012 at 8:07am
 
Thank you, Gregg. I owe so much to this site and its good people. I had nowhere else to turn, and yet here, I found hope and relief. I am quite capable of feeling sorry for myself when the pain won't quit, but this site keeps me focused. We are the fellowship of sufferers. Excelsior! Blessings. lance
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