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Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol? (Read 3410 times)
aurora
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Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Mar 6th, 2012 at 8:51pm
 
I am having my first cluster after identifying high amounts of trans fats as a dietary cause of the last two clusters I had, and successfully ending both clusters within a month of "cleaning out". (The second source was "0g per serving" so it fooled me for awhile - really 0 g per serving means <0.5 g per serving).  I didn't believe I was in a cluster for more than 4 months this time because by comparison, these were much much less painful and though they presented the exact same way I couldn't believe that's what they were until I recently stopped being able to get through the pain.
I'm curious if anyone has noticed the same - I learned from experience that partially hydrogenated oils contain trans fats whether or not its 0.5 g per serving.  I'm like your experiences because of the difference in the severity of the pain this time versus the last two, because of what I've read about alcohol consumption.  Alcohol-induced clusters are described as happening within an hour of consumption and this is identical to my experience with trans fats (and also related to how I was able to identify them as a causative).

I should mention that I'm a PhD student studying drug discovery and development and I wish it was but studying CH isn't lucrative enough for anybody I know to be doing it - my research is focused on diabetes and cancer.  As a graduate student in my 20s, I have decided to buy my own home fill system because it will pay for itself in two clusters, even with maintenance.  Still, this system is going to cost me what I spent on my car and it is only an abortive.  It seems to me that if both alcohol consumption and trans fat consumption can cause the most excruciating CH within an hour, that has something to do with something that happens pretty fast in the liver, but whether its the liver that's wrong in the first place or just makes it worse isn't answered.  I never drank alcohol during an episode - I don't drink much anyway and before I found O2 my script was not compatible with alcohol (and I had to take a lot to get it to work) and now I'm too afraid.  Something in particular that concerns me is that I read that for people who have noticed alcohol as a trigger, it's only a trigger about 80% of the time, but I don't know if that's normalized to the amount consumed or if a there exists a certain amount that induces CH 100% of the time.  If it's the same amount, that's bad news for all of us, because that makes it more difficult to know whether it's a trigger in the first place.  It also indicates some kind of other compounding factor we have to figure out which takes time we don't have.  Alcohol has also been described as only being a trigger during a cluster, and this is particularly interesting because it's difficult to explain biologically, because it requires some biological on/off switch that, when on, is affected by alcohol but not when off.  Is that switch in the liver?
I'd really like any comments about experiences with trans fats and/or alcohol.  Are trans fats (listed on the nutrition facts if over 0.5 g per serving, contained in anything with partially hydrogenated oils listed in the ingredients) something that's only affecting me?  I realize that often you don't even know it, but still has anybody else noticed this?  And what about alcohol - has anybody noticed a particular amount (keeping in mind original alcohol proof and anything it was mixed with - for example, noticed with stronger drinks but not a beer, observed with a glass of wine but not a wine-tasting sip) that is guaranteed to bring on the demons?  Does its ability to trigger really go away between episodes? All comments will be helpful. Thanks.
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #1 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:56pm
 
These abstracts summarize what is now accepted to be the etiology of Clusters.
---
Headache:lessons learned from functional imaging
British Medical Bulletin 2003; 65: 223-234

Arne May
Department of Neurology, University of Regensburg, Regensburg, Germany

Using PET in a larger patient series, significant activations ascribable to the acute cluster headache were observed in the ipsilateral hypothalamic grey matter when compared to the headache-free state44. This highly significant activation was not seen in cluster headache patients out of the bout when compared to the patients experiencing an acute cluster headache attack45. In contrast to migraine25, no brainstem activation was found during the acute attack compared to the resting state. This is remarkable, as migraine and cluster headache are often discussed as related disorders and identical specific compounds, such as ergotamine and sumatriptan, are currently used in the acute treatment of both types of headache46. These data suggest that while primary headaches such as migraine and cluster headache may share a common pain pathway, the trigeminovascular innervation, the underlying pathogenesis differs significantly as might be inferred from the different patterns of presentation and responses to preventative agents46.
Just as it is striking that no brainstem activation occurs in contrast to acute migraine, no hypothalamic activation was seen in experimental pain induced by capsaicin injection into the forehead47. This is important because injection of the forehead would activate first (ophthalmic) division afferents which are the trigeminal division predominantly responsible for pain activation in cluster headache. Thus two other types of first division of trigeminal nerve pain, while sharing neuro-anatomical pathways with cluster headache, do not give rise to


VASCULAR HEADACHE: ARE BLOOD VESSELS INVOLVED?

Taking these observations on acute cluster headache together with what has been observed in experimental head-pain and migraine, the data establish that migraine and CLUSTER HEADACHE, FAR FROM BEING PRIMARILY VASCULAR DISORDERS, ARE CONDITIONS WHOSE GENESIS IS TO BE FOUND IN THE CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM IN PACEMAKER OR CIRCADIAN REGIONS SPECIFIC TO THE SYNDROME. If further studies confirm these findings, a better understanding will be gained of where and how acute and preventative therapy can be targeted.
====
==== re. following
Interesting to note that he is saying that the primary mode of action is NOT as a vasoconstrictor but on its effect on the central nervous system. Doesn't change our appreciation of this class of meds but suggests we need to change how we think about the nature of CH.
==============================
Handb Exp Pharmacol. 2007;(177):129-43.   


Serotonin receptor ligands: treatments of acute migraine and cluster headache.


Goadsby PJ.

Institute of Neurology, Queen Square, London WC1N 3BG, UK. peterg@ion.ucl.ac.uk

Fuelled by the development of the serotonin 5-HT(1B/1D) receptor agonists, the triptans, the last 15 years has seen an explosion of interest in the treatment of acute migraine and cluster headache. Sumatriptan was the first of these agonists, and it launched a wave of therapeutic advances. These medicines are effective and safe. Triptans were developed as cranial vasoconstrictors to mimic the desirable effects of serotonin, while avoiding its side-effects. IT HAS SUBSEQUENTLY BEEN SHOWN THAT THE TRIPTANS' MAJOR ACTION IS NEURONAL, WITH BOTH PERIPHERAL AND CENTRAL TRIGEMINAL INHIBITORY EFFECTS, AS WELL AS ACTIONS IN THE THALAMUS AND AT CENTRAL MODULATORY SITES, SUCH AS THE PERIAQUEDUCTAL GREY MATTER. Further refinements may be possible as the 5-HT(1D) and 5-HT(1F) receptor agonists are explored. Serotonin receptor pharmacology has contributed much to the better management of patients with primary headache disorders.

PMID: 17087122 [PubMed]
=================================================================
J Clin Neurosci. 2010 Mar 11.

What has functional neuroimaging done for primary headache ... and for the clinical neurologist?
Sprenger T, Goadsby PJ.

UCSF Headache Centre, Department of Neurology, University of California, 1701 Divisadero St, Suite 480, San Francisco, CA 94115, USA.

Our understanding of mechanisms involved in primary headache syndromes has been substantially advanced using functional neuroimaging.

THE DATA HAVE HELPED ESTABLISH THE NOW-PREVAILING VIEW OF PRIMARY HEADACHE SYNDROMES, SUCH AS MIGRAINE AND CLUSTER HEADACHE, AS BRAIN DISORDERS WITH NEUROVASCULAR MANIFESTATIONS, NOT AS DISORDERS OF BLOOD VESSELS.

PMID: 20227279 [PubMed]
=======
Alcohol is a trigger only when we are in an active cycle/period. But,

some interested, confounding data out of Europe, which has not been explored (as far as I know), indicates that red but not white wine is a trigger, as well as spirits. Hints as some chemical component in red may be involved. In addition, we recognize solvents, some cleaning agents, even as nasal intake, will trigger for some.

Unlike migraine, neither literature or out discussion here, have lead to identification of food triggers in Cluster

I've never seen any hint, suggestion, guess about fat as a trigger, cerainly not causal.
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« Last Edit: Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:58pm by Bob Johnson »  

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Batch
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #2 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 8:30am
 
Hey Aurora,

If you're into drug discovery and development while looking for a causative relationship relative to your CH, see your PCP about a lab test for your serum 25-Hydroxyvitanin D concentration...  You're likely vitamin D3 deficient... 

The normal reference range for 25(OH)D is 30-100 ng/mL...  However we've had 25(OH)D lab results reported as high as 42 ng/mL from CH'ers with active CH... 

70 out of 100 CH'ers who starting the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3, (cholecalciferol), have gone pain free or had a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of their CH and had the lab test for 25(OH)D, have all reported results ≥ 60 ng/mL.   It appears the therapeutic response range for CH'ers is a 25(OH)D concentration of 60-120 ng/mL.

As long as your research is focused on diabetes and cancer, you might want to explore the relationship of these two disorders relative to vitamin D3 deficiency as well as calcium and zinc homeostasis.

If the clue bird hasn't made a low pass to trigger your curiosity, consider the following:

1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol, the biologically active form of vitamin D3, binds to intracellular receptors that then function as transcription factors to modulate gene expression. 

Take care and please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch
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aurora
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #3 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 10:51am
 
Ok so I used the wrong word - I meant trigger not cause as in fundamental underlying cause.  But keep the replies coming, my PI is a kind of a slave-driver so I don't get a lot of time to do any outside research.  @Batch - I learned that my student insurance which doesn't cover my oxygen will actually cover blood tests so I will definitely check into that, but its these numbers that make the whole thing so complex - only 70%?  That means its somehow related but whether its upstream or downstream is still in question, and obviously 30% of CH patients are able to compensate somehow or the mechanism that causes the deficiency is absent in those - the control of gene expression makes a lot of sense there, but it's a complex problem and its difficult to study.  But I think (I hope?) all of these things - sensitivity to alcohol and vitamin deficiencies - are clues to what the fundamental problem really is.  Not today, and not next year, but someday I'd like the ability to choose my project and when the time comes I think working on CH would be very satisfying.
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #4 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:30pm
 
aurora wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 10:51am:
Ok so I used the wrong word - I meant trigger not cause as in fundamental underlying cause.  But keep the replies coming, my PI is a kind of a slave-driver so I don't get a lot of time to do any outside research.  @Batch - I learned that my student insurance which doesn't cover my oxygen will actually cover blood tests so I will definitely check into that, but its these numbers that make the whole thing so complex - only 70%?  That means its somehow related but whether its upstream or downstream is still in question, and obviously 30% of CH patients are able to compensate somehow or the mechanism that causes the deficiency is absent in those - the control of gene expression makes a lot of sense there, but it's a complex problem and its difficult to study.  But I think (I hope?) all of these things - sensitivity to alcohol and vitamin deficiencies - are clues to what the fundamental problem really is.  Not today, and not next year, but someday I'd like the ability to choose my project and when the time comes I think working on CH would be very satisfying.

In scientific terms it's called a Whonky Hypothalamus.

                   Potter

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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #5 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:31pm
 
Hey Aurora,

The efficacy data I cited was harvested from posts here at CH.com, ClusterBusters, PMs and direct email on responses to the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  As such it's essentially an uncontrolled survey and there's no good way to assess compliance.

Having said that, CH'ers are a determined lot and tend to follow homeopathic guidelines as closely as possible.  I've gathered sufficient data from CH'ers in the 30% category who didn't respond within the same time lines as the 70% who experienced a favorable response.  Comorbidities are clearly implicated, in particular, thyroid/parathyroid, renal, hepatic and pancreatic insufficiencies.

Regarding the etiology and pathogenisis of CH... it's becoming clear, at least to me, that although CH is a neurological disorder, seeing an endocrinologist to find relief might be more beneficial than seeing a neurologist.

Regarding home oxygen therapy coverage...  Call your insurance company and explain that your monthly costs for generic sumatriptan succinate are likely four to five times the cost of oxygen contents needed each month to abort your CH if you buy your own mask and regulator.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #6 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:34pm
 
Quote:
having my first cluster after identifying high amounts of trans fats as a dietary cause of the last two clusters I had,


While alcohol is an almost universal trigger around here for those who are in cycle, I have never heard ANYONE say trans fats have ANYTHING whatsoever to do with cluster headaches.   Alcohol is a trigger because it is a vasodialator and that is a big no-no.  We need a vasocontrictor.  Trans fats are neither, as far as I know.

Quote:
but whether its the liver that's wrong in the first place or just makes it worse isn't answered


A deformed Hypothalmas gland is the culprit for Cluster headaches.  The liver has nothing to do with it.

You say you have no Insurance for 02.. but it really is quite inexpensive.  I pay 10.00 per e-tank.  A regulator can be bought on-line for as little as 25.00 and a good mask for about the same.  Even a cheap non-rebreather mask is only about 3.00.
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #7 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 9:05pm
 
I really was hoping to hear people's personal experiences, not published data... I did find this, though:

This study shows that eating a high-fat meal leads to dilatation of peripheral conduit arteries and microvessels, as well as to enhanced maximum vasodilator reserve, possibly related to postprandial hyperinsulinemia. In these subjects, flow-mediated endothelium-dependent dilatation remained unchanged after these particular high-fat meals.
[Enhanced peripheral vasodilation in humans after a fatty meal Raitakari et al. J Am Coll Cardiol, 2000; 36:417-422]

So vasodilation is probably the mechanism for the trans fat trigger. 

@Batch- Very helpful!!!! And very interesting.  The homefill system set me back a cool $1500 so I do plan to file the insurance claim, but the most they will pay, if they do, is $600, but as I mentioned before it would cost me more than that to go through two clusters at the tank or rental rates.
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #8 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 10:50pm
 
Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked.....Does this mean "no-more doughnuts and potato chips ???
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aurora
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #9 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:44am
 
@Lenny: I don't know, that's what I'd like to find out!  A LOT of companies have responded to the trans fat stuff and eliminated partially hydrogenated oils from their products. It makes sense that all those big fatty acids tumbling through the veins in high concentrations would exacerbate the issue.  Those headaches were the worst I've ever had - just like people describe with alcohol.  These are no fun, by any means, but they come on slower and progress slower so it's easier to get relief before the beast has fully shown himself.
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #10 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 4:37pm
 
Linda_Howell wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:34pm:
[quote]Alcohol is a trigger because it is a vasodialator and that is a big no-no.  We need a vasocontrictor.


aurora wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 9:05pm:
So vasodilation is probably the mechanism for the trans fat trigger. 


From everything I have read and know, the idea that vasoconstriction is good, vasodilation is bad is one that has been largely disproven....Here's something I copied from a clusterbusters post I put up a while ago...

Vasoconstriction
May 1st, 2011 at 11:24am      

Caffeine works by vasoconstriction right? Here's a quote by Dale Pendal in an amazing book I have, Pharmakodynamis.  "While caffeine is generally a vasodilator, it has the opposite effect in the kidneys and brain, actually decreasing blood flow to the brain.  It is the increase in cerebrovascular resistance that makes it effective against migraines caused by cerebrovascular  distention."   
      
How about ginger, an amazingly effective Vasodilator, why does it help so much for clusters? 

I don't know how many times I've heard that sumatriptan works by vasoconstriction...It's sulfonated DMT, I think it's doing a lot more than just vasoconstriction.  (my guess is your brain gets flooded with serotonin, just like DMT does, but it's JUST serotonin, not halucinogenic DMT)

Pseudoephedrine, a known trigger for clusters is a vasoconstricter.

Feverfew, a substance many migrainers and some cluster sufferers get relief from is a vasodilator.

capsaicin, another vasodilator, has helped a lot of people with migraines and clusters....

So...I'm not saying that certain vasoconstricters can't help the situation or that certain vasodilators can't hurt the situation...I keep hearing people say, "it's a vasoconstricter, it'll help" or "it's a vasodilator, that won't help"  What I am saying is that I don't think it's that simple.  I think the whole vasoconstriction vs vasodilation idea is an antiquated one stemming from the ergot drugs that work for migraines and clusters.  They are vasoconstrictors, and they work.  I think when they first came out we really didn't know how they worked, but vasoconstriction made sense at the time, and the idea has stuck.


-Ricardo
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #11 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:00am
 
I've posted the abstracts (reply #1) likely a dozen times and each posting is followed by -- no response, no recognition that this material is at odds with the vascular model which dominates the collective thinking here.

Ricardo as reinforced these abstracts in his comments, but, if the pattern continues, the vascular model will continue to be the dominant explanation.

This is an interesting and oft repeated human experience: once some ideas are embedded in our mind they stick with amazing tenacity! This is one of the key mechanisms behind so many of our prejudices, political positions, and religious beliefs. The fuss over global climate change is only one of the more recent examples of how our thinking habits impede adaptation.
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #12 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 5:28pm
 
Bob,

I tend to side with Dr. Arne May regarding the etiology of cluster headache.  The work he's done over the last 10 years in structural and functional neuroimaging has given him a leg up on the competition... 

He took the high ground with his explanation of the pathogenesis of the cluster headache syndrome in his 2005 seminar paper titled: Cluster headache: pathogenesis, diagnosis, and management, (attached), where he plays a straddle.

He opines that "Headaches often start about 1–2 h after falling asleep or in the early morning, and show seasonal variation, suggesting that the hypothalamus has a role in the illness. Consequently, the vascular theory has been superseded by recognition that neurovascular factors are more important."

He concludes his discussion of the pathophysiology of the cluster headache syndrome with the following: 

"In summary, the pathogenesis of cluster headache is
complex and remains incompletely understood. It is
probably better to regard the condition as a
hypothalamic syndrome rather than as a simple
headache.

In doing so, the contributions of both peripheral and central structures are considered, and this description takes into account the hypothalamic symptoms such as aggressiveness, sleep disturbance, restlessness, and endocrine and vegetative symptoms typically encountered in many patients.

Whether it is  primary to the disease or only an epiphenomenon, the peripheral nervous system’s role in episodic cluster headache is beyond dispute. Interestingly, the peripheral part of the trigeminal nerve is not necessarily needed for some chronic forms of the disease, which means that the syndrome may be progressive.

Whether inflammation of the walls of the cavernous sinus occurs, a process that has been thought to obliterate venous outflow and thus injure the traversing sympathetic fibres of the intracranial internal carotid artery and its branches, is controversial. That the hypothalamus is involved, at least in primary cluster headache, seems indisputable."

I had the opportunity to meet with Arne for two days at his UKE facilities in Hamburg Germany in July of 2010 to talk about oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.  I've stayed in contact ever since and recently sent him the latest efficacy data on use of the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 as a cluster headache preventative.

If I was a betting person...  I'd wager there's likely to be another paper on the pathogenesis of cluster headache and its management six months to a year from now...  only this time discussing the role of vitamin D3 as a cluster headache preventative.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Trans fat as a dietary cause? Like alcohol?
Reply #13 - Mar 13th, 2012 at 1:14pm
 
With all that being said, I would not be surprised at all if trans fats triggered a cluster with you, Aurora.  I know I have seen studies that came to the conclusion that a high intake of Trans fat during gestation and Lactation can cause hypothalamus inflammation in offspring. (in rats) Maybe I'm stretching it a bit, but it wouldn't surprise me to see trans fat affecting an already wonky hypothalamus, leading to the actual cluster hit.

-Ricardo

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