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Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up. (Read 10438 times)
Rumeke
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Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Nov 19th, 2013 at 8:38pm
 
65 yr old female. I have just about given up on the D3 regimen and am at my wits end. I normally cycle every 2 years in the late winter/early spring for about 8 weeks.
This cycle began in August and was very erratic..mostly day hits along with PF nights and some days too.. I have been on 5,000 D3, 400 mag, 2,000 fish oil since my last cycle in March 2012. Although I ran out of mag 2 weeks before this cycle started so figured that was the culprit.

Restarted 400 mag, upped by D3 to 10,000 the end of August and added calcium citrate. Still hit or miss hits with PF days off and on and nothing over a 4-5..something I could live with. The 1st week of Sept. my hits switched to nights and were 8-9's but except for a shadow now and then my days were pain free. I then upped my D3 to 15,000 and my hits went down to nothing higher than a 5 once a night with PF days 2-3 days in a row. Now I was really excited!

I had my D25 tested in June 2013 (42ng/ml) and retested the end of Oct when it was 62ng/ml. My PCP asked me to cut back to 10,000 as it was higher than it needed to be...still taking 15,000.

The 6th of Nov. I started getting hit 2 times a night 7-8 kip so I stopped the calcium (getting desperate for something to get better) and they dropped to 1 a night at kip 5-6 with a few shadows that passed in 5 min.

November 14th getting hit 3 times a night kip 7-9 and the dreams before I got hit were so vivid they were scary. Needless to say restarted the calcium citrate on the 16th. Still getting hit 2-3 times a night kip 8-9 for 25-30 min.

What am I doing wrong? I guess I need to get my D25 retested? I am like a zombie during the day and tend to cry for no reason but can take a nap w/o more than a shadow when I wake up so that helps a little.

I saw my neuro in Sept and he prescribed O2 along with a prednisone taper that I won't use. I finally got the tank filled and last night was able to abort one hit in 8 min. Was too late on the other 2 and quit after 20 min. I stayed up for 2 hrs after the last hit and fell asleep for 3 hours  and woke PF.

Maybe it's just the length of this cycle (4 months) that is getting me down but I'm not sure I can take this ramping up of my hits anymore. I need someone's wisdom to tell me what I am doing wrong.

Taking..
Drs Best D3 15,000 (taking with 1 fish oil at dinner)
Fish Oil 2,000 (1 in the am)
Calcium Citrate w 500 D3 (split doses)
Ultra Mag 400 (split doses)
Centrum Silver
Verapamil 240 twice a day (high bp)

Thanks in advance for whatever advice you can give me. This site gave me back my sanity when I was 1st diagnosed 8 yrs ago...just knowing I was not alone.



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Batch
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #1 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:13pm
 
Hey Rumeke,

Hang in there and don't give up just yet...  The hit and miss nature of your present cluster headache pattern tells me you are close to a therapeutic level of 25(OH)D.

Your serum concentration of 25(OH)D in October was at the low end of the "green zone,"  (60 to 110 ng/mL).  You need to be up around 85 ng/mL to experience a therapeutic response with a significant reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of your cluster headaches. 

A 25(OH)D serum concentration at this level also buys you sufficient reserves to fight off viral infections and allergic reactions and still have sufficient 25(OH)D to prevent CH.

Sooo...  It's time for the nuclear option with your vitamin D3 dosing to get your 25(OH)D elevated for a therapeutic response... 

Bump your daily vitamin D3 intake up to 20,000 IU/day and add a 50,000 IU loading dose of vitamin D3 once a week on top of your daily dose. 

Continue this vitamin D3 dosing schedule for one week then drop the loading dose for the second week at 20,000 IU/day. Lower your daily vitamin D3 intake to 15,000 IU/day for the next two weeks then go in for another 25(OH)D lab test.  You should be able to drop your vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day at that point. 

Be sure to take the vitamin D3 and Omega-3 Fish oil with the largest meal of the day and to take all the vitamin D3 cofactors...  Magnesium is the most important and 400 mg/day should be sufficient.

In reality, the above dosing schedule isn't a nuclear option at all...  The total vitamin D3 intake over the four week period is 540,000 IU and that works out to an average of less than 20,000 IU/day.

RRMS patients routinely take vitamin D3 doses between 30,000 and 40,000 IU/day for up to a month...

Regarding vitamin D3 toxicity...  The lowest most conservative threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication is 200 ng/mL.  The vitamin D3 experts and Jedi Masters of vitamin D3 therapy say the real threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication is more like 300 ng/mL.

If your PCP comes down with anal leakage over your daily intake of vitamin D3 or your serum concentration of 25(OH)D, ask for serum lab tests for total calcium and PTH (parathyroid hormone). 

Serum calcium and urine calcium are the real tests for vitamin D3 toxicity...  not 25(OH)D... Both your serum calcium and PTH should be within their respective normal reference ranges and that should calm down your PCP...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Hoppy
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #2 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:22pm
 
Hi Rumeke,
Maybe try this.         Vitamin D3 20,000iu /day.
                              Magnesium citrate 500mg /day.
                              Calcium citrate 400mg /day.
                              Plus one loading of D3 50,000iu
                              once a week. Plus your fish oil.

                              You need a serum concentration
                               of around 80ng/ml to get the best
                               results. Also with this regime you
                               need to take it all with your main
                               meal of the day and at least 7hrs
                               after you've taken your last Verapamil

                                Hoppy.

                               
                                  
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« Last Edit: Nov 19th, 2013 at 10:35pm by Hoppy »  
 
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #3 - Nov 19th, 2013 at 11:08pm
 
Thank you! Thank you!!
I will start tomorrow with the daily increase and loading dose. I also will start taking all my goodies at once. Only question I have is with the calcium and verapamil ...I take 1 time release verapamil every 12 hrs, so where oh where do I fit in the calcium citrate?
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Hoppy
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #4 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 12:21am
 
You could take the first Verapamil at say 10am, have dinner
together with the regime at around 6pm, and then the second Verapamil around 10pm. That should be ok.
Hoppy.
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Vikinggirl
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #5 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 2:02am
 
Hi Rumeke,

Just wanted you to know that increasing to 20.000 iu/day and a weekly loading dose of 50.000 iu (actually a little less that a week apart) did the trick for me.

Seems to me that we have had almost the same reaction on the D3. I also had an immediate reaction when I started with 10.000 iu, decrease in severity and duration. After 5 days I started to get worse again, and after Batch good advice, I incresed to 20.000 iu together with the weekly 50.000 iu. Same happend again, and now, after a loading doese of 50.000  for the 4th week in a row, I am totally PF. Almost 2 weeks since the last loading dose, and still PF.

Hang in there, I bet you just need finetuning  Smiley

Connie
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« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2013 at 2:03am by Vikinggirl »  

D3 rocks !!!
 
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nhs
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #6 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 2:38am
 
Hi

Zinc is very importtant co-factor in the regime. I take 50 mg per day.
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Hoppy
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #7 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 3:00am
 
Hi Rumeke,
Just thought i'd mention. Your Centrum Silver has all the
other co-factors you need including Zinc. It also contains
200mg of Calcium Citrate, so you can cut the 400mg your
taking by half.

Hoppy.
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #8 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 3:37pm
 
Thanks Vikinggirl for the encouragement! This cycle has lasted longer than any other for me and was getting me down!  Guess the D3 has pissed off the beast. Starting the increased dose tonight with dinner!

Happy... I noticed this am that my calcium is 600 for 2 so that works out to 500 a day when I take the Centrum Silver and 1 calcium. Perfecto! Thanks for alerting me!

Judy
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Hoppy
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #9 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:23pm
 
Hi Judy,
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Hoppy.
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #10 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:25pm
 
Hoppy wrote on Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:23pm:
Hi Judy,
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Hoppy.

Me too  Smiley

Connie
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D3 rocks !!!
 
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shooky
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #11 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:33pm
 
Rumeke - things might have been easier had you got the O2 earlier, and now that you have - make sure you're getting the best out of it.

I'm in a point very similar to yours, with a 25OH value of 67ng/ml (tested two weeks ago) and just upped from 15,000 IU to 20,000 IU last week, only my hits this year are mostly KIP 3-5, and I guess that's mainly due to my frequent and very effective use of O2.

I don't take Verapamil. I do use melatonin though, which does a pretty good job in reducing both frequency and intensity of nocturnal hits and is considered very safe. I use 2mg slow-release + 6mg regular melatonin.

Good luck and be strong!
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« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2013 at 5:33pm by shooky »  
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #12 - Nov 20th, 2013 at 8:03pm
 
Shooky.. you are so right about the O2! My neuro prescribed it for me 4 years ago and the next day my cycle ended suddenly, never had it filled. This time he told me...you must get this filled..it will change your life! I started 2 nights ago using it and have been so tickled. Stopped all hits in 5-8 minutes so i don't even know what kip they would have been! What a dummy I was to suffer needlessly!! He only prescribed 10 lpm but told me if I relax and just breathe normally it would work.

I wondered about the melatonin..my daughter takes it to help her sleep.

Judy
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #13 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 7:50pm
 
That's great news!

Note that most of us benefit from using higher LPM values, some as high as 25lpm. Personally, I get great results with 12-15lpm.

Relaxing and breathing normally does work for some attacks. Other attacks will be easier to abort if you hyperventilate, which for most people demands more than 15lpm (it does change according to ones weight and lung size).

About melatonin: in my experience, it's best to start with a lower dose and up it until you find it harder to wake up in the morning, than decrease the dose a little. Out of cycle, I can't take more than 3mg without getting really tired the morning after. During a cycle (a period in which melatonin secretion is usually impaired) I can take 6-10mg and feel really fresh in the morning after.
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #14 - Nov 21st, 2013 at 11:10pm
 
Thanks Shooky! My regulator goes up to 20lpm..10lpm is what the neuro prescribed and what it is set at now. I figure I can always up it if the current setting stops working. I found breathing slow and deep kills the hit in 5-8 minutes..10 minutes when I was a tad late getting to the O2. I tried breathing regularly and my body kept trying to deepen the breaths..so I listened to my body. That could be because before O2 I would go outside in the cold air and do the deep breathing and it helped.

I may start the melatonin if the upped D3 doesn't pan out. I do miss my sleep!

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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #15 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:54am
 
I abort the same way, deep, slow breaths. I exhale, cough to totally empty the lungs, then take as deep a breath of 02 as I can. I hold it for 15 to 30 seconds, then repeat. I use a demand regulator so I conserve my 02 as it doesn't flow unless I'm drawing off the regulator. One of my buddies on this site was aborting with 10 LPM for many many years before the hyper-ventilation idea took hold.

As with everything else, there seems to be  a lot of high percentage meds, abortive styles, triggers, but there's just no "One Size Fits All" with the beasty! Wink

Great to hear the 02 is working so well for you. It takes a lot of wind out of beasty's sails when you know you can slap his butt down in less then 10 minutes.

Joe
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #16 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 11:48am
 
The O2 is now my lifeline...I may be still having 2-3 at night but without the pain of a kip 8-9 I am not as drained the next day, even with broken sleep.

I learned my lesson this am..woke with what felt like a shadow and laid back down...bad move! By the time I realized this one would be bad it was too late for the O2. A not so gentle reminder to hit the O2 because you never know what's lurking! lol
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #17 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 5:43pm
 
My problem was always being sound asleep, dream I'm getting hit, dream I'm aborting with 02, by the time I wake up beasty has a good foothold! Undecided

Joe
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #18 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:03pm
 
Oh no! I don't know about you but my dreams are so vivid when I'm in cycle. I dreamt one night that my husband had invited all these women into the bedroom and they kept waking me up and were giving me a headache so I couldn't sleep. Yep, a bad one and my first instinct the next morning was to punch my hubby!  Wink
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #19 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 7:08pm
 
I'm not naming names.....but my wife will be pissed at me for several days after I've been an ass in one of her dreams!!!! Grin Grin Grin

Joe
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #20 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 11:02pm
 
LMBO! And on that happy note..I'm headed to sleep for hopefully more than 2 hrs at a time. But hey, with O2..I'll take what ever I can get!
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #21 - Nov 22nd, 2013 at 11:08pm
 
Sweet dreams,  Smiley
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #22 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 7:57am
 
Rumeke - when an attack becomes too strong and O2 won't abort it, it's a good idea to chug an energy drink than go on with the O2. One of the nice things about O2 is that it works well with other abort methods - including cold/hot pads, trigger points, triptans etc.

Also, one of the greatest tips I think: applying pressure over the effected side helps aborting faster. I do O2 while lying on my side with my face pressed to my arm and shoulder. Found it to work MUCH faster.
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Rumeke
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #23 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 2:12pm
 
Progress report!
Upped my daily to 20,000 D3 and did the loading dose of 50.000 on this past tuesday. Must have ticked the beast off because that night got hit with 3 kip 8-9 that the O2 finally knocked down after 15 minutes.

Next night..3 shadows that O2 killed in 5 minutes.

Last night.. 5 hrs straight sleep and awoke with a shadow easily aborted. Took a 2 hr nap today...no shadow!!

My dreams are still vivid but no complaints. Looks like the loading dose at least quieted the beast for the moment and I'll take it!
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Re: Needing some help here with D3 - about to give up.
Reply #24 - Nov 29th, 2013 at 2:49pm
 
Damned glad to hear that!

Joe
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