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Topic: CH history, genetic link and nicotine (Read 19256 times) |
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Redd
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #50 on: May 6th, 2008, 7:16pm » |
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I don't fault you for trying Annette. I'm simply thinking critically about the situation.
I just don't feel that given the history of hit or miss diagnosis of this condition to begin with and the universal lack of in depth knowlege of CH by the medical community, that any research into exposure to nicotine as a causal factor for the development of CH could be statistically significant. Not unless the results of research into why non/never smokers and those not exposed to significan't levels of second hand smoke is used as a sister research project as a control group.
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Kevin_M
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #51 on: May 6th, 2008, 7:18pm » |
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I don't have an opinion but smoking, nicotine, and CH are difficult to see as all increasing in unison. It doesn't appear to be the case.
on May 5th, 2008, 9:09pm, Annette wrote:
Quote:| So as men and women started to smoke and gradually increasing the amount of tobacco consumed, there seem to be a correlation of CH reported. |
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The chart does not show an increase in smoking. From 1945 to 1992, men smoking dropped from 72% of the population to 28%, while the incidence of clusters increased. A graph would show a decrease of smoking with an increase of clusters, they go in opposite directions.
Quote:Now lets look at CH and nicotine.
we havent really got an concrete causal correlation between the two. Or have we ? |
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Along with a two-thirds drop in smoking, the content of nicotine per cigarette since 1954 has also dropped by two-thirds. Again, CH increasing and nicotine decreasing aren't in unison.
Quote:Since 1950, the makeup of cigarettes and the composition of cigarette smoke have gradually changed. In the United States, the sales-weighted average "tar" and nicotine yields have declined from a high of 38 mg "tar" and 2.7 mg nicotine in 1954 to 12 mg and 0.95 mg in 1992, respectively. In the United Kingdom, the decline was from about 32 mg "tar" and 2.2 mg nicotine to less than 12 mg "tar" and 1.0 mg nicotine per cigarette.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9120872 |
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A two-thirds drop in smoking for men and a two-thirds drop in nicotine content per cigarette over the last fifty+ years doesn't seem to correspond with the higher incidence of CH. Less smoking, less nicotine per cigarette, more CH. A difficult span to rationalize.
Although CH'ers may smoke more, I'd presently see Bob P's idea about smoking.
on May 6th, 2008, 5:16pm, Annette wrote:
China is currently the biggest consumer of tobacco in the world.
For now, as Lee has pointed out, the number of CH cases reported in China is low compared to its huge population. |
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They've smoked without filters much longer in the last century but still CH has a low incidence.
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| « Last Edit: May 6th, 2008, 8:00pm by Kevin_M » |
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Redd
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #52 on: May 6th, 2008, 7:32pm » |
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Although I can see the surface connection between addictive personalities and CH and nicotine, I'm more in the school of thought that...
... due to the vascoconstrictive nature of nicotine and the effect of vascoconstrictors to ease CH pain, smoking sufferers have a more difficult time quitting because of the relationship between smoking and even the slightest amount of relief of the pain.
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Linda_Howell
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #53 on: May 6th, 2008, 7:53pm » |
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My friend Margo in San Diego has a very young son with CH.
How old was Jasper (Helens son) when he developed them? 3?
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Redd
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #54 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:04pm » |
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And Helen never smoked from what I can recall.
Thanks for reminding us of this Linda, it sheds a whole new perspective to this.
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AussieBrian
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #55 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:09pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 7:53pm, Linda_Howell wrote:
My friend Margo in San Diego has a very young son with CH.
How old was Jasper (Helens son) when he developed them? 3? |
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It's the exception that tests the rule and science wouldn't be the same without it.
Thank you Galileo, and go Annette.
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #56 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:16pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 7:18pm, Kevin_M wrote:
The chart does not show an increase in smoking. From 1945 to 1992, men smoking dropped from 72% of the population to 28%, while the incidence of clusters increased. A graph would show a decrease of smoking with an increase of clusters, they go in opposite directions.
Along with a two-thirds drop in smoking, the content of nicotine per cigarette since 1954 has also dropped by two-thirds. Again, CH increasing and nicotine decreasing aren't in unison.
A two-thirds drop in smoking for men and a two-thirds drop in nicotine content per cigarette over the last fifty+ years doesn't seem to correspond with the higher incidence of CH. Less smoking, less nicotine, more CH. A difficult span to rationalize.
Although CH'ers may smoke more, I'd presently see Bob P's idea about smoking. |
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About the percentage of smokers shown as dropping in Australia but the total population of Australia has grown considerably from 1950 therefore the absolute number of smokers was still increasing.
I havent looked into the content of nicotine per cigarette over the years. That would be an interesting thing to look into. Whether or not it is relevant depends on how much nicotine exposure is necessary , if it is, to exert a causative effect on CH or CH genes. The effect may or may not be linearly dose related.
The correlation between the number of smokers and the number of CH can not be used as proof of cause. It can simply be used as a question mark to see if its worth looking into. Since there has not been a proven answer one way or the other, its interesting to say the least to take a closer look.
The answer will lie in future studies on the implication of the polymorphism of this gene and how it triggers CH in a person, and the effect, if any, of nicotine or other chemicals in the tobacco that may exert on this gene.
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Brew
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #57 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:21pm » |
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The hypothalamus is considered to be the pain/pleasure center of our brains. Leading theories as to the cause of CH point to the hypothalamus. If our defective hypothalamuses are responsible for CH, could it not then be responsible for our collective penchant for addictions? And would it then be plausible that statistically we might be outside the norm when it comes to what we consider to be painful and/or pleasurable? I wonder if, for example, CH'ers represent a higher than normal percentage of sado/masochists, or anything else where pain and pleasure get opposite billing, as compared to a cross section of society?
Sorry - it's just how my mind works sometimes.
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #58 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:24pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 7:53pm, Linda_Howell wrote:
My friend Margo in San Diego has a very young son with CH.
How old was Jasper (Helens son) when he developed them? 3?
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That is because CH is multifacets ie many things can lead to CH. Its not caused by ONE thing.
There will always be exception to the rule. Argument like that is similar to saying I smoked all my life and I didnt get lung cancer therefore cigarette smoking can not cause lung cancer in anyone else !
Jasper's case is a perfect example of genetic cause of CH. Its like diabetes, if you have a bad diet and unhealthy lifestyle all your life you can develop diabetes type II later in life. However if you inherit the gene you can develop type 1 diabetes from birth.
Just because those little babies with the wrong set of gene dont have to eat any sugary food to develop diabetes, we can not come to the conclusion that therefore bad diet will not cause diabetes in others.
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #59 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:39pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 8:21pm, Brew wrote:The hypothalamus is considered to be the pain/pleasure center of our brains. Leading theories as to the cause of CH point to the hypothalamus. If our defective hypothalamuses are responsible for CH, could it not then be responsible for our collective penchant for addictions? And would it then be plausible that statistically we might be outside the norm when it comes to what we consider to be painful and/or pleasurable? I wonder if, for example, CH'ers represent a higher than normal percentage of sado/masochists, or anything else where pain and pleasure get opposite billing, as compared to a cross section of society?
Sorry - it's just how my mind works sometimes. |
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The hypothalamus is not the centre of pain or pleasure. Pain is felt by the sensory nerves of various nerve pathways and systems, and most originate/communicate with the brainstem. Disable your brain stem with anaesthetic and you wont feel much pain anymore. The pleasure centre is in the limbic system, where emotions are experienced. What connect these centres to the stimuli of the outside world are the neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and noradrenaline. The balance of these neurotransmitters is controlled by the hypothalamus. Its the imbalances in these chemicals that lead to abnormal signals being conveyed to various parts of the brain and nervous system. A faulty hypothalamus can do this, external drugs can do this, other environmental factors can do this and even diet can do this too.
Interestingly Hypocretin 1 and 2 do have direct effect on the pain pathways via the dorsal reticular nucleus and the periaquaduct.
As I said above, CHers compared to the norm tend to be more addictive to chemicals from nicotine to alcohol to various drugs. I dont know about other forms of addiction such as gambling. This could be an explanation as to why more CHers smoke than not. However, it has been my observation that most CHers who smoke do so well before the first CH cycle, unlike schizophrenics who tend to start smoking after becoming ill.
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #60 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:42pm » |
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Since researches done directly for CH is rather scarce, I had to look at parallel conditions and situations to compare. If one looks at the situation with cigarette smoking and lung cancers, although the increase in cases of lung cancer was recorded through the years since tobacco was introduced into the Western countries, it was not proven until the carcinogenic chemicals in the cigarette was found to be directly causal to various types of lung cancer. Then for a while people were led to believe that lower tar and lower nicotine in "light" cigarette was less risky, until it was proven again that those were just as deadly as the higher ones. The last point was that passive smokers believed they were safe, until it was proven that they were actually worse off because of lack of inbuilt immunity from not smoking. All these findings took time to prove and have now led to the policy of smoking being banned in all public places.
Based on that experience, there is a definite possibility that similar results could be found with cigarette smoking and CH. What started all the studies into cigarette smoking and lung cancer was the simple observation that most people with lung cancer smoked.
Obviously there will always be isolated cases that dont fit the mould. There will always be people who smoke heavily all their lives and nothing happens to them and there will be those who never as much as taken a whiff who would get ill. However, its the majority we are interested in.
I am not discounting totally the argument that CH can influence personality causing an addictive trait. Its proven as in schizophrenics that abnormal dopaminergic pathway can certainly do so by rendering nicotine more rewarding to the affected brains. This however does not prove that nicotine or something else in the smoked tobacco can not cause the condition. Nicotine is addictive in its own right and you dont need to have an addictive tendency to become chemically dependent on it.
As stated above, its observed that schizophrenics are more likely to start smoking or to smoke more when becoming symptomatic, especially during psychosis where the dopamine is high. As far as I could see, there was no report of this relating to CH. Most CHers who smoke do so years before the first attack and they dont seem to smoke more or less according to how bad the cycle is.
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #61 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:52pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 7:32pm, Redd wrote:
... due to the vascoconstrictive nature of nicotine and the effect of vascoconstrictors to ease CH pain, smoking sufferers have a more difficult time quitting because of the relationship between smoking and even the slightest amount of relief of the pain. |
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That is a very interesting thought ! I need to ask this question though, how MUCH pain relief from CH does a cigarette give ? Is it something quantifiable? or is it more the "feel good" effect caused by the dopamine release via nicotine that make people notice the pain less?
George said having a cigarette after a hit helped ease the after burn effect and thats why he kept on smoking. Would oxygen do the same ? Would oxygen get rid of this afterburn effect? I would say yes. Oxygen is known to get rid of even worse pain such as shadows. Why arent CHers addicted to oxygen ? Simple, because oxygen eases the pain but doesnt give the brain any "rewards" like nicotine does.
Its different in schizophrenics where its proven and measurable that those who stop smoking do experience a temporary worsening of their ( psychotic ) symptoms. This isnt observed in CH.
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Kevin_M
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #62 on: May 6th, 2008, 8:54pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 8:16pm, Annette wrote:| About the percentage of smokers shown as dropping in Australia but the total population of Australia has grown considerably from 1950 therefore the absolute number of smokers was still increasing. |
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That wouldn't appear to be complete figuring.
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Going by your charted years 1945 - 1992 and the corresponding percentages. ( I chose 1995 to be conservative, the population in '92 would be slightly less)
78% of 7 million is 5,460,000
28% of 18.1 million is 5,068,000
That is not an increasing number of men smokers, if men were half the population.
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| « Last Edit: May 6th, 2008, 9:10pm by Kevin_M » |
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Brew
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #63 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:07pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 8:39pm, Annette wrote:
The hypothalamus is not the centre of pain or pleasure. Pain is felt by the sensory nerves of various nerve pathways and systems, and most originate/communicate with the brainstem. Disable your brain stem with anaesthetic and you wont feel much pain anymore. The pleasure centre is in the limbic system, where emotions are experienced. What connect these centres to the stimuli of the outside world are the neurotransmitters, such as dopamine and noradrenaline. The balance of these neurotransmitters is controlled by the hypothalamus. Its the imbalances in these chemicals that lead to abnormal signals being conveyed to various parts of the brain and nervous system. A faulty hypothalamus can do this, external drugs can do this, other environmental factors can do this and even diet can do this too.
Interestingly Hypocretin 1 and 2 do have direct effect on the pain pathways via the dorsal reticular nucleus and the periaquaduct.
As I said above, CHers compared to the norm tend to be more addictive to chemicals from nicotine to alcohol to various drugs. I dont know about other forms of addiction such as gambling. This could be an explanation as to why more CHers smoke than not. However, it has been my observation that most CHers who smoke do so well before the first CH cycle, unlike schizophrenics who tend to start smoking after becoming ill.
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #64 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:08pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 8:54pm, Kevin_M wrote:
That wouldn't appear to be complete figuring.
78% of 7 million is 5,460,000
28% of 18.1 million is 5,068,000
That is not an increasing number of men smokers, if men were half the population.
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Thanks for that Kevin  . I will need to try to find if there is a record of number of CH diagnosed in men in Australia and whether it increased through the years or not. Plus whether there was a big increase in number of women being diagnosed with CH as the absolute number of woman smokers would have increased substantially.
If the number of diagnosed men stay relatively the same and the number of woman with CH diagnosed increased substantially, then it would still be valid.
Have you come across any report of the rate of cigarette smoking in US men and women from 1950 until now ?
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #65 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:09pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 9:07pm, Brew wrote:
I am sorry Bill. Did I offend you somehow ?
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tanner
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #66 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:12pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 8:24pm, Annette wrote:
That is because CH is multifacets ie many things can lead to CH. Its not caused by ONE thing.
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Lotus.....  , am I confused or are you not the same person that a relatively short time ago came to this forum seeking help, answers, insight, vibes and support because Daniel was having serious issues that were leading you to believe that he might be a clusterhead???
Now, in again a very short space in time you have managed to figure out the (many different) causes of our shared syndrome  . You have positively identified a cluster gene? While your theories are compelling to some and I am one who believes that all angles should be checked and re-checked to try and help with the effort to find an answer........
this is starting to sound like the same psychobabble that I have been hearing from a multitude of the (know it all faction) of the medical community for the last 24 freakin years.
I would like to point out that I have not yet met a cannibal that has CH.......might be worth looking at  ......tim
modified to add that I could really use a smoke right now! 24 miles to town and not a sympathetic soul in site.....crap, i guess i will have to stay the course 
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| « Last Edit: May 6th, 2008, 9:18pm by tanner » |
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #67 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:14pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 9:09pm, Annette wrote:
I am sorry Bill. Did I offend you somehow ? |
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I merely have nothing left to contribute to this thread.
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Kevin_M
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #68 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:18pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 9:08pm, Annette wrote:| Have you come across any report of the rate of cigarette smoking in US men and women from 1950 until now ? |
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No, I didn't look. I took this for granted in your first post of this thread, just above the chart:
Quote:| I couldnt find one for US but found one for Australia, which I would say is quite representative of the industrialised countries. |
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #69 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:30pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 9:12pm, tanner wrote:| Now, in again a very short space in time you have managed to figure out the (many different) causes of our shared syndrome . You have positively identified a cluster gene? |
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Tim, I think she is putting an idea out there and has found that there has been a gene associated with CH. I don't think she identified it.
Quote:| The first genetic risk factor for CH has been identified in the Hypocretin Receptor 2 gene. CH appears to be associated with the G1246A polymorphism of this gene. |
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Annette
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #70 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:30pm » |
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on May 6th, 2008, 9:12pm, tanner wrote:
Lotus..... , am I confused or are you not the same person that a relatively short time ago came to this forum seeking help, answers, insight, vibes and support because Daniel was having serious issues that were leading you to believe that he might be a clusterhead???
Now, in again a very short space in time you have managed to figure out the (many different) causes of our shared syndrome . You have positively identified a cluster gene? While your theories are compelling to some and I am one who believes that all angles should be checked and re-checked to try and help with the effort to find an answer........
this is starting to sound like the same psychobabble that I have been hearing from a multitude of the (know it all faction) of the medical community for the last 24 freakin years.
I would like to point out that I have not yet met a cannibal that has CH.......might be worth looking at ......tim
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Hi Tim
Yes its me. Its the same old me who came here asking a whole host of questions 2 years ago.
In the last 2 years I have spent a lot of time reading up on CH and following the latest studies on CH. What I have come to know about CH is all the published work that I have managed to read and what I have learnt from the people here.
I certainly did not find the gene associated with CH. I simply found the article talking about it. It was certainly not me who discovered that many things can cause CH, it was those in research who believed it to be so and published about it.
The only thing I have done is to add my own thoughts to what I have read and share them here. I dont expect people to take what I say for granted, but as something they may or may not be interested in. I am sorry if posting what I found here sounds like psychobabble to you.
I guess this is why Flo dont come here anymore and why Lee said he preferred to keep all his findings to himself. I looked into archive and found a thread started by Flo in 2004 raising the same question of the Hypocretin receptor gene in relation to nicotine and no one was interested then either.
Looks like not much has been changed.
I will stop the psychobabble now. Thank you all .
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #71 on: May 6th, 2008, 9:31pm » |
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Just to keep the topic on CH and it's realated qualities lets leave schizophrenics out of the equasion.
Schizophrenia is not caused by hypothalamic disfunction so therefore does not enter into this querry.
Just because some of the same neurotransmitters are involved doesn't give liberty to make any compairisons between one condition with the other.
Since I can't access the reports, please link to a study where I can see conclusively that hypothalamic cell abnormality and dysfunction is related to Schizophrenia.
Then I can comment further.
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #72 on: May 6th, 2008, 10:31pm » |
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Thank you for the liks via PM Annette, and when I have the chance to pour over them I'll paste and reply with my professional sufferer opinion...(just trying to keep it light humored here\ as it's intended.)
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #73 on: May 6th, 2008, 10:44pm » |
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I think I would have to agree. It seems like the only smart way about it:
Annette, until you can come up with hard concrete proof of what exactly causes CH, there's no sense in researching theories regarding the cause of CH.
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Re: CH history, genetic link and nicotine
« Reply #74 on: May 6th, 2008, 11:00pm » |
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Interesting thread to say the least, though I not sure why some have gotten so fired up about it. I think any research out there is certainly worth considering, but even if there was a significant study linking smoking or anything else to ch, there will always be and exception to the rule. Like sandie and a few others I do not smoke, nor have I ever been a smoker. I also do not have an addictive personality in any way shape or form. I am not a drinker, gambler, junkie, or otherwise.
In my case, the only link to smoking I can provide is that both my parents smoked (for a very short time before I was born), my mom started again for several years after divorcing my dad, but then quit. My grandfathers' on both my mother and father's side smoked and my grandmother on my mother's side smoked very little. Anyway, that's my two cents, even though it's not particularly scientific.
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KatzPurr's Purrrrrrr Palace
http://www.myspace.com/jlabax
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