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Topic: Bob P's beta (Read 1046 times) |
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Bob P
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Bob P's beta
« on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 8:42am » |
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You guys are right that I should start a new thread rather than hijack the kudzu thread.
Mark - I have no idea what the potency of this batch is. It was grown from a spore print that you encouraged me to make from my other batch of B+. Completely deyhdrated, stored in the freezer in 1.5 gram doses. They have been in the freezer for close to a year but last nights dose did relax me and put me in good humor.
I've had what I wrote off as sinus headaches every morning for the past 10 days. Only on my cluster side. Sunday's morning headache was enough to convince me that, after over 3 years, they were back.
Sunday, around noon, I took about .5 grams of one of the doses. Also took 3 mg of melatonin before bed. Monday morning's headache was minor. Kip2 for 15 minutes.
Monday night 3 mg melatonin. Tuesday morning hit was kip5 for 1/2 hour.
Tuesday evening .5 gram fungi & 3 mg melatonin. This mornings hit, Kip 2 for 15 minutes. I did wake up 4 or 5 times during the night with the feeling that it could hit anytime but managed to doze back off.
I will now move to .5 morning and evening each day.
No medication of any kind taken.
Dr. appointment this morning to get O2 and cafergot just in case (I have a jar of about 100 tabs of cafergot from last time along with a few trex and maxalt tabs). I'll let you know if I'm able to find the cafergot this time. All of the triptans work for me also but I hate having to hassle the insurance company for enough of them.
I only had 4 ea. 1.5 gram doses so when that is gone the trial is over.
These also haven't settled into the normal schedule yet. Morning wake up hits are not the norm for me. Usually get hit at 2pm, 7pm and 1.5 hours after going to sleep.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:00am by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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don
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I know the feeling of a CH relapse after 3 years of bliss. It sucks but we know in the back of our minds they will re-occur at some point.
Good message for the newly diagnosed or newly suffering from Bob P.
Strike fast....strike hard.
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Flash
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OK that's at least 5 full days of sip dosing. Should do the trick. Fingers crossed.
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pattik
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #3 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 9:19am » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2005, 8:57am, don wrote:I know the feeling of a CH relapse after 3 years of bliss. It sucks but we know in the back of our minds they will re-occur at some point.
Good message for the newly diagnosed or newly suffering from Bob P.
Strike fast....strike hard. |
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Good advice, Don. Sorry to hear that you are back into a cycle, Bob. I can go two or three years PF, so I know it can be difficult to determine sometimes that the beast is back.
I hope you get through this one quickly and with ease.
 Pat
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Margi
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #4 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 9:55am » |
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Bob, sorry to hear the beast is back is San Luis.  I was so hoping that you'd be one of the lucky ones to get stuck in remission.
Good to hear that you've got your arsenal stocked. Know that you've got an army behind you if you need to lean.
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #5 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:05am » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2005, 8:42am, Bob P wrote:Sunday, around noon, I took about .5 grams of one of the doses. Also took 3 mg of melatonin before bed.
Monday night 3 mg melatonin. Tuesday morning hit was kip5 for 1/2 hour.
Tuesday evening .5 gram fungi & 3 mg melatonin.
No medication of any kind taken.
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Quoted from the Clusterbusters (FAQ) site:
4.4.3 Some people have had positive results adding Melatonin to their diet.
One study showed very good results when 9mg of Melatonin was added at bedtime. This dose is high for some people as they have side effects such as being very tired all day. You may want to try 1mg to start and build up to where you see some positive results without the side effects being too uncomfortable. Some people have reported using up to 12mg at bedtime.
More Info:
In one study, 10 mg of melatonin was administered to half of 20 cluster-headache patients in a double-blind controlled study that lasted 14 days. Headache frequency was significantly reduced in the melatonin treatment group. Five of 10 people in the melatonin group reported that their attack frequency declined after only 30-35 days of treatment. No patient in the placebo group responded." Caphalalgia (Vol 16, Issue 7 1996) Additional studies have shown similar results.
There is some evidence that Melatonin may block the actions of psilocybin. If you use it to get through your detox period for other medications, you should consider stopping the Melatonin 5 days prior to and 2-3 days following your psilocybin doses.
Bobw
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Flash
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...wait for it...
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Bob P
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #7 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:20am » |
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Quote:
Now that even made me laugh C.
Quote:There is some evidence that Melatonin may block the actions of psilocybin. If you use it to get through your detox period for other medications, you should consider stopping the Melatonin 5 days prior to and 2-3 days following your psilocybin doses.
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What's the evidence? Mel is a metabolyte of serotinin. It doesn't attach to any 5HT receptor sites which is where it is claimed psyl does it's thing. Mel attaches to sites on the suprachiasmatic nuclei (SCN) of the hypothalamus?
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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Flash
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on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:05am, Pinkfloyd wrote:| There is some evidence that Melatonin may block the actions of psilocybin. If you use it to get through your detox period for other medications, you should consider stopping the Melatonin 5 days prior to and 2-3 days following your psilocybin doses. |
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And there's some circumstantial evidence to support this. The pineal gland secrets 3 main neurotransmitters, serotonin, melatonin, and DMT (dimethyl-tryptamine). Imitrex (sumatriptan) was synthesied from DMT.
http://www.idmu.co.uk/tryptamines.htm
http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/serotonin/5ht_hallucinogens.htm
Don't stick one hand in the spokes while the other is turning the wheel. Sorry.
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Flash
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Bob we've got access to a big wadge of psilocybin reports from dozens of cluster sufferers. We had several failures and identified that the common thread was melatonin. Like you we were surprised, but then thought about it and requested those people to eliminate the melatonin... and hey presto.
Seriously we're not shitting you. We've spent a few years now helping people to break their cycles and learned an awful lot along the way.
From what I've seen most cluster treatments are acting on the endocrine system - whether or not they bond directly to certain receptors. I think the system should be considered as a whole.
The only thing that we positively recommend using is O2. One interesting side effect of the psilo, and particularily pronounced with the sip method, is that it noticably improves the effiacy of O2... even to the extent that O2 starts working for people that it didn't work for before.
Outside of that low doses of verapamill like 360mg seem to be relatively OK, but higher doses definately aren't. Thre treatment does appear to work best without verapamill though.
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Bob P
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Shut up Bob!
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #10 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:55am » |
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Quote:| And there's some circumstantial evidence to support this. The pineal gland secrets 3 main neurotransmitters, serotonin, melatonin, and DMT (dimethyl-tryptamine). Imitrex (sumatriptan) was synthesied from DMT. |
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My reading says:
"Serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, or 5-HT) is a monoamine neurotransmitter synthesised in serotonergic neurons in the central nervous system and enterochromaffin cells in the gastrointestinal tract."
Serotonin is not sercreted by the pineal. It is taken in by the pineal and matabolized to make melatonin.
The pineal secretes melatonin and trace amounts of DMT.
But then again another article says:
"Another curious feature of the pineal organ is the production of melatonin and serotonin. Serotonin is produced in the gut of the intestinal tract as well as the Pineal organ. Serotonin is another transmitter. It is one of the major four, this is, one of the commonest neurohumors.
The interesting thing about serotonin is its change over to melatonin which occurs chemically in the pineal gland. The pineal gland is the only area where this is done."
Hell, I think I'll go beat the crap out of Hub!
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| « Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2005, 11:20am by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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Flash
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OK I've posted on CB for some feedback and so far have heard of 2 cases where the melatonin was thought to cause problems, but also 1 instance of someone for whom it both works and helps take the edge of dosing. I've asked him to post here.
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #12 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:13pm » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2005, 10:20am, Bob P wrote:
What's the evidence? Mel is a metabolyte of serotinin. It doesn't attach to any 5HT receptor sites which is where it is claimed psyl does it's thing. Mel attaches to sites on the suprachiasmatic nuclei (SCN) of the hypothalamus? |
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I know you didn't ask for any advice but believe it or not, we all would like to see you not go into cycle.
You're the one who's cycle is beginning. You're the one that has already begun the treatment. But now, before you'll consider anything we might be able to offer, you want scientific proof of our anecdotal evidence.
I know the scientific end interests you (as it does us) and you want to know the how's and why's before acting. Thats all well and good. We ALL should want to know more. I would understand and appreciate the question more if you'd asked it a week ago, before your cycle began.
All we know is that some people have had better luck AFTER stopping melatonin. Its not that some people have had shroom success with melatonin and some had success without melatonin. There was a difference for people after making that change. That and the molecular similarites point to a possible link.
Take it for what it's worth. Its a valuable and interesting discussion. One that should be continued. I just don't know if you want to wait for the answers since you're in the middle of the treatment.
I get the feeling that when you're out fishing, you won't drop a line in the water unless the fishfinder not only tells you there is a fish directly under your boat, but he's also of legal limit AND hungry.
Bobw
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LeeS
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #13 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:27pm » |
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Good luck with your medication Bob, but I've also heard a bit of anecdotal evidence recently which suggests that melatonin may interfere with the efficacy of psilocybin. That pineal gland has been fascinating me recently too, my reading says:
"There are two methyltransferase enzymes, HIOMT and INMT, which are capable of converting serotonin into a number of psychoactive derivatives. HIOMT, localized exclusively within the pineal gland, specifically catalyses the transfer of a methyl group to the oxygen located at the five position on the indole ring. In other words, HIOMT converts a 5-hydroxy-indole into a 5-methoxy-indole. This enzyme converts serotonin, 5-hydroxytryptamine, into a psychoactive compound called 5-methoxytryptamine. In turn, this compound becomes a substrate for INMT, another pineal methyltransferase enzyme.
INMT specifically catalyses the transfer of methyl groups (one at a time) to the amine nitrogen on an indole side chain. The resulting monomethyl intermediate, 5-methoxy-N-methyltryptamine, is also psychoactive, but it is quickly converted to the dimethyl derivative by INMT. The final molecule - endogenously produced in the human pineal gland - is 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, a relatively unknown but extremely potent hallucinogen."
As I said, all the best with it, but please don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
-Lee
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Bob P
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #14 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:29pm » |
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Thanks Bob. Just wanted to know what evidence you were refering to so I can make a learned decision.
Personally I don't think melatonin does much for me so I have no problem at all not using it.
BTW - When I fish, usually in the Eastern Sierra, I hope the fish don't bother me. I can sit and stare at the mountains all day, never get a nibble, and call it a good day.
Hi Lee,
Interesting reading. You aren't offering that as evidence that melatonin interferes with shrooms are you as I can't see any interaction of the two in your post?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:53pm by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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Giovanni
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #15 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:51pm » |
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Good luck with your beta testing Bob. 
I personally had better results with dosing after withdrawing from melatonin for one week. Also, I know that the mini doses have worked for many, but for me it kept things stirred up and was not as effective as once a week for several times using larger doses. We're all a bit different and you might have to experiment a bit to find your "ideal" dosing method.
John
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LeeS
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #16 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 1:08pm » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:29pm, Bob P wrote:Hi Lee,
Interesting reading. You aren't offering that as evidence that melatonin interferes with shrooms are you as I can't see any interaction of the two in your post? |
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Nah, just wanted to bounce it - as I said, fascinating thing that pineal gland, which I've a feeling has a lot more to do with the possible pathophysiology of CH than the hypothalamus  . Still working on it ...
Incidentally, just had a quick look at Floridian's kudzu thread, and although there are obviously numerous other variables involved, it doesn't seem that melatonin has adverse affects on kudzu. Those that do and don't take melatonin in conjunction with kudzu both average out at around 6/10 on efficacy.
-Lee
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pinksharkmark
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #17 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 2:01pm » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2005, 12:29pm, Bob P wrote:| Personally I don't think melatonin does much for me so I have no problem at all not using it. |
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I think that would be a wise decision, myself.
The use of smaller more frequent doses (in the 0.5 gram range daily or twice daily) has worked for many of the case studies we compiled. But others have found the larger, less frequent doses to work better for them.
If it were me, I would go with the larger less frequent doses -- but only because it worked for me the last two times. I no longer have the urge to experiment with this -- I'll stick with what worked for me personally rather than tinker further. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Keep reporting, please. I'm very interested in seeing how the smaller more frequent doses work in your case, particularly if you discontinue the melatonin as well.
One thing we have heard reported often is that the smaller dose method doesn't always completely eliminate the less severe attacks UNTIL several days after the last dose is taken. In other words, it might be a good idea to hold off on IMMEDIATELY starting some other treatment once you run out of B+. Give it a few days if you can control the pain with just vigorous exercise or with oxygen.
Naturally, if after those few days things continue to deteriorate, take further action as you see fit.
Looking forward to your next report!
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fjleonard
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #18 on: Mar 23rd, 2005, 2:42pm » |
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Bob P,
(long post, but my experience to date may give you and others some insight to this promising approach to treating CH)
If you are looking for Proof points...I am another (along with Giovanni), both on Melatonin & small frequent doses.
I have had CH for almost 25 years now, and after a few years chronic in the 80s with Pred, Lithium and all the other norms of the day, I swore off meds and toughed it out without anything until about 2 years ago. The good news was that after giving up all meds I went back to ECH.
After a particularly nasty cycle early in 2003 I decided to give the medical establishment another try. Late 2003 I started into another cycle and immediately started on Verap with imitrex for abortive. Seemed to work fine, stopped the cycle early and all. BUT....then started another cycle 6 weeks later....NOT good and NOT normal for me. For the previous 10 plus years I always could count on at least 6 months PF between cycles.
I refused to go back on Verapamil for a variety of reasons, but continued to use trex for the bad hits.
About this time I discovered the shroom treatmenty and decided to give it a shot. After a rough start trying to balance a hectic travel schedule with trex, and a few larger (2 gram/Level 2 trip) doses, I finally swore off the trex completely and settled into a smaller dose regimine (1/4 to 1/2 gram weekly) and also started taking Melatonin, extra B2 & Magnesium.
At this point the cycle settled down some but did not completely go away. I struggled very uncharacteristically with weekly shadowing and low level kip 1-2's....redosing...etc...for months.
In November another full blown cycle started ramping up, and I chose to be a ginnea pig for a "daily, very small dose" routine. (Still on the Melatonin as well). I began taking daily .1 gram doses. Over the course of Nov to Dec. I slowly ramped up the dose to .2g daily, then to .3g daily. End of December I was still in full blown cycle, with 3 to 6 hits a day getting over Kip 5. The saving grace during this time was that the shrooms have made O2 much more effective for me, so I was able to abort many of them quickly.
End of December I finally gave up on the frequent small dose routine, began detoxing for a week in order to do a more traditional 2 gram / Level 2 trip in an attempt to whack the beast good. A week later (still getting hit) it was brought to my attention that Melatonin "could" interfere with the shroom treatment as well. Ok...."crap"!! So now I decided to bite the bullet and detox off Melatonin for another week before doing the larger dose. I expected to really get slammed after stopping the Melatonin....but...much to my surprise, at that point the cycle started ramping down!!
I went 3 weeks at that point with conditions continuing to improve before shadows started to pick up again, so I finally did the larger dose (2 grams / level 2 trip). After the usual hangover day (I actually HATE dosing anything over 1/2 gram....but not as much as I hate CH!!!), I then went 3 weeks without so much as a shadow. Mid Feb, I started shadowing again, so I dosed again, and have been PF since.
After the worst oveall year (which I primarily attribute to Verap & imitrex) since breaking my chronic cycle in the late 80s , I finally feel like I'm completely out of cycle. and will now start figuring out my maintenance routine.
In hindsight, I now believe that the small doses kept the beast subdued but could not completely knock things out. Melatonin, while helpful with sleep patterns, apparently also helped keep things stirred up.
I personally don't like playing guinea pig and wish this was all sorted out by the experts so I could "just follow the directions", but unfortunately we are all still pioneering some groundbreaking areas here. The good news though is that we now appear to have some REAL alternatives to living this life of hell so many of us have had to live previously!!
In closing I will apologize for disappearing after this post, but I did want to get my story out here as it seems you are trying an approach to shroom treatment that had questionable results for me (both the smaller doses as well as the Melatonin.) I also am very encouraged by what I am reading about Kudzu, but.....would be very leary of mixing two very early experimental treatments, as I'm sure you are.
Good luck with your treatment, whatever approach you take....and I'm with you on the fishing bit!! Just let me alone to stare at the mountains!! If I catch anything then I have to clean it and I'm too lazy for that!
JL
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Bob P
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Shut up Bob!
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #19 on: Mar 25th, 2005, 11:14am » |
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Well nothing exciting yet:
http://www.pahlow.net/ch/ch_diary.xls
BTW - chewing dehydrated fungi is like chewing on somone's dirty socks!!!!!!
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| « Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2005, 11:34am by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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Renee
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #20 on: Mar 25th, 2005, 7:39pm » |
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Have you ever tried Pinky's Kick Ass Tea recipe?
I replace the instant coffee with tea bags and add honey for flavoring. It's not bad at all this way.
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23 years of battling the beast, 9 years chronic......uneducated docs/nurses make me irate.
The fungus among us is for real!
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rumplestiltskin
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Bob P beta pay attention
« Reply #21 on: Mar 27th, 2005, 12:06pm » |
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saw yer diary boob
yer doin verap too?
wassup?
walk in the sunshine
den
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forgetfulnot
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Bobw wrote Quote:| I get the feeling that when you're out fishing, you won't drop a line in the water unless the fishfinder not only tells you there is a fish directly under your boat, but he's also of legal limit AND hungry. |
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That's the way I fish Bob, otherwise it cuts into my beer drinking time 
Lee
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Bob P
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Shut up Bob!
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #23 on: Mar 28th, 2005, 11:44am » |
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Quote:saw yer diary boob
yer doin verap too?
wassup? |
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Because:
Quote:| Outside of that low doses of verapamill like 360mg seem to be relatively OK, but higher doses definately aren't. |
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And from Dr. Sewell:
"Odd that they’re not working, but does seem to be a crapshoot! Generally, the clusterbusters seem to be adamant that you shouldn’t mix verapamil and shrooms, but I have one patient who finds that the combination works better for him than anything else, so who’s to say. Since we don’t know why it works at all yet, we’re a little in the dark."
I'm out of fungi now anyway and on to other things. Future posts will be in the kudzu thread.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 28th, 2005, 1:27pm by Bob P » |
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Mrs. Barlow, I never, and I repeat never, ever pissed in your steam iron.
"SHUT UP HUB!"
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pinksharkmark
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Re: Bob P's beta
« Reply #24 on: Mar 29th, 2005, 6:23am » |
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on Mar 28th, 2005, 11:44am, Bob P wrote:| I'm out of fungi now anyway and on to other things. Future posts will be in the kudzu thread. |
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Sorry to hear that a short trial of the "small but frequent" dose method combined with a token amount of Verapamil didn't do the trick for you, Bob. I looked over the chart at the link you posted and it does look like the severity of the attacks is on the rise.
Again, my suggestion would be to wait a few days if you can before starting the Kudzu and try to abort any attacks in the meantime with just O2 inhalation or ice packs or vigorous exercise or some other non-pharmaceutical approach. As I mentioned in my previous post, some of those using the "small but frequent" dosing method have reported that it isn't until several days after stopping the dosing that the lesser attacks will subside. It's as if the frequency of ingestion (resulting in psilocin being in the bloodstream pretty near all the time) is keeping things in an unsettled state -- less activity than there would be with no dosing at all, but more than there would be if the poor confused synapses were allowed to settle into a "post-shroom" state.
That is my personal theory of what is going on with the "small but frequent" dosing regimen, but it is a theory consistent with the many MANY reports we have of people (including myself in 2003) using the larger dose regimen who report a lessening of severity immediately after dosing, followed by two or even three days of INCREASED severity, then a steady decline to zero or near zero after that.
It's unfortunate you didn't have enough on hand to have switched over from the small dose regimen to at least one traditional "larger dose" attempt, but that's the way things go sometimes. It's not as if one can get the prescription refilled at the nearest pharmacy.
I look forward to reading your reports on the Kudzu.
pinky
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