Please go to

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and read everything there.  EVERYTHING.  There is alot of very good and important information there for anyone considering taking this avenue of treatment.

After reading all the different links, please come back for clarification on any remaining questions you may have.

Best of Luck

Uh, I hate to argue with you, Pascal, but SSRI's actually negate the functionality of the other indole ring hallucinogens, including psilocybin, psilocin, LSA (seeds), LSD, DMT and the others.  I don't know what happened with your previous experience, but I've done a lot of research into this, and I'll try to dig up the links to the documentation, but they know for a fact that once your receptors have "hooked up" with the SSRI, then it is shut off to any additional receptor antagonists until the medication wears off.

Most of the SSRI's have a half-life of 24-48 hours, so the recommended "detox" time is 5 days off of the meds before you dose.
But go and read EVERYTHING on clusterbusters and all of the links it will send you to.

Again, not trying to be contrary Pascal, but there's hard documentation out there...I'll find it and post.  Could you have been taking something else that gave you a cross-reaction?  That's why they need approval for more research- so we can really KNOW what to take and not take with these drugs!!

Jeannie:  Given that they both directly act on serotonin receptors, you run the risk of serotonin syndrome if you take seeds (or LSD or psilocybin) while on SSRIs.

UnderTheRadar - if you can find those links, I'd really appreciate it.  I used to have several, but lost my bookmarks in a computer crash a while ago.  I'll put some time into it and see if I can relocate any of them.

Keep us posted Jeannie!

Laurie

Found this:

Handbook of Neurotoxicology, Vol II by Edward J. Massaro, Humana Press P. 237 - 238

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"3.2.2. Interactions of Hallucinogens and Acutely Administered SSRI

Acute co-administration of SSRIs in combination with hallucinogens has also been reported.  We initially published a case report of an individual who ingested fluoxetine prior to ingesting LSD and noted a potentiation of the hallucinogenic responses 108 and have had numberous individuals subsequently report that a variety of SSRIs can increase the response to both tryptamine and phenethylamine hallucinogens.
    SSRIs block the serotonin transporter from recycling serotonin back into the presynaptic bouton, increasing serotonin in the synapse.  Among SSRIs are Fluoxetine, paroxetine, sertraine, and fluvoxamine.  The acute potentiating effect between hallucinogens and SSRIs may not be surprising given that there are a handful of case reports in the medical literature indicating that SSRIs have been self-administered acutely by individuals wiht drug-abuse histories for their reinforcing effects (109-113).  In fact, many of the respondents in our study noted that during the early phase of taking an SSRI as treatment for depression, they experienced sensations that they identified as distinctly similar to the first hour or two following hallucinogen administration.  Although hallucinogen action is clearly correlated to stimulation of 5HT-2 receptors, the ability of SSRIs to induce symptoms reminiscent of hallucinogens in experienced users suggest the intriguing prospect that the serotonin transporter may play a role in hallucinogenesis."
   
"3.2.3. Interactions of Hallucinogens and Chronically Administered Antidepressants

Chronic administration of antidepressants have vastly different effects on the hallucinogenic response than acute administration of antidepressants, suggesting that adaptive neural changes are responsible.  Although acute administration of SSRIs or MAOIs can increase the response to hallucinogens, individuals who have taken an SSRI or an MAOI for at least 3 weeks have a dramatic reduction or complete abolishment of the hallucinogenic effects from LSD (108, 116).  ....The differential effect of various antidepressant agents on the response to LSD, dependent upon duration of treatment, is pharmacologically complex...."

and it then proceeds to discussion of specific receptors, responsiveness of receptors, and serotonin levels.

Bottom line - it appears that the use of SSRIs or tricyclic antidepressants, if taken individually with the hallucinogen (LSA, psilocybin, LSD, MDMA, etc.) will boost the effect - but if used for any length of time as treatment for a condition, the same drug (other than potentially the tricyclic antidepressants, as discussed in the link provided by Lee) will inhibit the action of the hallucinogen.

Comes to the same conclusion.... best to detox off of antidepressants of any variety prior to dosing with any type of hallucinogen.  Either they'll suppress the therapeutic effect or you run the risk of serotonin syndrome OR amplified hallucinogenic experience.

And given that any clusterhead is seeking the medical benefit, not the "side effect," it just seems safest to detox prior to dosing.  

***************************************

The question is - if RC Seeds or Psilocybin (or LSD) are going to be used to bust a cycle, and more than one treatment is required (which is usually the case), what happens from going off the anti-depressant?  It's use can't be restarted during the busting treatment or it will (most likely) interfere with the effectiveness of the treatment.  

I know that many people are scared of the potential side effects of using the hallucinogens as way to bust their clusters.  But I think it important to know that a study of psilocybin as a potential treatment for depression (& other mental disorders) was/is being explored at Johns Hopkins.  

The Hopkins study was a randomized, placebo-controlled study, and though some experienced fear and anxiety during the experience, 79% of the participants reported "moderately or greatly increased well-being or life satisfaction compared with those given a placebo at the same test session.  A majority said their mood, attitudes and behaviors had changed for the better.  Structured interviews with family members, friends and co-workers generally confirmed the subjects' remarks."

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This sense of well-being lasted at least up to 14 months later:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

Laurie

Thanx a bunch for posting this very interesting and usefull information, Laurie!

Garys_Girl wrote on Nov 27^th, 2008 at 2:29pm:
 



At that time I was a wild child, mixing up anything I could find, not aware of the fact that mushrooms can be used as an abortative to a cycle. That was why I tried to warn to my fellow sufferers here who are not into a lifestyle I used to engage in but merely looking for relief.

After all, it seems obvious now that the prozac DID enhance in my case. Just as obvious as it can reduce the effects to other people.
Question I'm wondering about: will it also reduce the effects sought by clusterbusting?


Radar, if it weren't for the good people who've found out by trial and error what does work (energy drinks, psychedelics etc.) I'd still be climbing up and down the walls in pain. Not sure what the FDA is, but I'm guessing a healthcare department?
Anyway, I'll take your word if it's them to be pissed about in keeping appropiate research down.

PF days to you both (and all others here off course)!

Pascal.

The Kudzu is another indole-ring member.  That Kudzu helps is a good indication that LSA (seeds) or psilocybin (mushrooms) will work to bust the pain (if they don't work it doesn't mean seeds or shrooms won't work).  But yes, you should detox off the kudzu.

If you're on a high blood pressure med to treat high blood pressure (many clusterheads use verapamil, which is a calcium channel blocker med designed to treat high blood pressure), I think you really ought to consult with your physician first.  If you're using verapamil to treat the clusters, then yes, definitely detox.  If you're using something else to treat high blood pressure, I really would bring your doc into the discussion so you fully understand any risks you would be taking.

You can consider trying the seeds without detoxing off the high blood pressure med.  If it doesn't work, then have the discussion with your doc about the risk of coming off the meds. 

The most important thing is to not risk your health otherwise - and also to understand the mechanism of action of the med to determine whether or not it may interfere with the alternative cluster treatment.

Laurie

Excuse me if I'm incorrect here, but I thought that if you have a mental illness you shouldn't do the alternative treatment due to possibility of adverse effects?

UnderTheRadar wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 4:24am:


Melissa wrote on Nov 29^th, 2008 at 8:43am:


While UnderTheRadar overstates the potential therapeutic benefits a bit in this statement, you are both right. 

I think the decision by anyone considering alternative treatment should be an informed one.  There are potential risks to people who may have an underlying mental illness that has not yet been diagnosed - or, alternatively, there are potential benefits for certain Mental Health problems given the promising studies of psychedelics on various mental diseases.

To a certain extent, nullifying both of these is that fact that the studies in relation to LSD, psilocybin, or LSA in the treatment of cluster headaches are based upon very low doses - usually sub-hallucinogenic doses of the psychedelics.

Either way, it is VERY important to understand HOW to properly use any of the psychedelics for treating cluster headaches and the environment in which they should be used, and to have proper entertainment lined up and a support system in place to minimize the potential for negative side-effects.   

**************************************

Quite a bit of research was conducted with LSD (as opposed to psilocybin or LSA) in the 50s and 60s.  After 30 years, in the 90s, the FDA did begin to approve on a very limited basis some studies that include psychedelics.

In addition to the psilocybin/LSA studies on cluster headaches, a study involving psilocybin and the treatment of physical and emotional pain of cancer treatments has been conducted at the Harbor-UCLA Medical Center in CA, and a study of psilocybin in the treatment of OCD has been completed at the University of Arizona:
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Interestingly, a college student wrote his dissertation, "A Critical Review of Theories and Research Concerning LSD and Mental Health," in 1998 for his Master of Arts in Mental Health Studies at the University of Portsmouth.  It is an un-biased review of LSD and related studies, side-effects (psychosis, flashbacks) and outlines (IMO) very well the potential issues.  Notably, the conclusion is that LSD does not appear to provoke an earlier onset of an inevitable illness, nor does it appear that the use of LSD can "cause" a prolonged psychosis, though the research is "unclear in its use of controls, statistics and methodology."  But I believe this is a "must read" for anyone considering using alternative treatment for clusters.

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The same document reviews a number of studies for the therapeutic use of LSD.

As to UnderTheRadar's point that LSD has many therapeutic uses, that does appear to be the case - though studies conducted in the 1950s and 1960s were not performed to today's controlled standards, they do point to the value in continuing to pursue psychedelics as potential treatment for various mental illnesses.

"The Therapeutic Value of LSD in Mental Illness, Journal of Mental Science 100, 491 (1954):  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

LSD Studies with Autistic Children at neurodiversity.com:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

Anyone wanting to look further into psychedelic studies should definitely spend time on MAPS' website (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies):  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

A review of current research:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

Laurie

Absolutely!  While Docs may not "endorse" trying the alternatives, they can certainly help lay out the risks to each individual.  !!!!

Laurie

O.U.C.H. January 2007 Newsletter (PDF) page 8:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

Unfortunately, the med-owl clusterheadache book is down:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to or

Laurie

Whoops- I should have been more clear, but I was trying not to write a 3-page essay.    I didn't mean to imply that simply taking a dose of LSD will cure a mental illness;  but if you start digging through old research papers and journals on MAPS, psychotherapists were very excited about the headway they were making by using LSD in a controlled setting as a tool in conjunction with therapy; some very remarkable case studies if you dig around.

But as for anyone who says that you shouldn't try hallucinogens if you are being treated for anxiety/depression "without a doctor's supervision", well....just how do you get doctor supervision to do an illegal drug?     No offense, but all that my caring and understanding GP could do was give me a timeline for getting the zoloft out of my system- and not everyone's doctor is even going to be THAT supportive.  And the cautions I've read about were aimed more towards schitzophrenia (sp?) and severe bipolar disorder, etc.

Really though, when I'm faced with months of cluster headaches that don't respond to conventional treatments,  I am going to try whatever I can!  But yes, I think we should at least notify our doctors of our intentions, whether they like it or not.   

This is my whole soapbox thing-they need to get it into labs, get it into trials, and get real hard data on how to use this stuff safely!!  It's like teaching abstinence- sure, great, but we all KNOW that everybody's doing it, so let's do it safely!