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Finally officially diagnosed after all these years (Read 4785 times)
Jangly Mark
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Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Jan 28th, 2011 at 11:02pm
 
I got to see the Neuro this week - and CH has now finally been officially diagnosed.

Sadly, I won't be gettig O2.  I am a smoker, and there are 2 other smokers in the house.  I was told that this would put a stop on any chance I had of getting O2.

Subject to ECG tests, I will be getting Verapamil....starting at a dose of 80mg daily, and increasing if need be (to a max of 960 mg daily), starting 1 month before my next expected cycle (July).

Just wondering if this would have any bearing on my normal day to day activities...

Also, while I tend not to drink AT ALL when in cycle (it tends not to be a trigger for me, but, I just don't feel like a drink knowing that the next hit could be hours away), if I did have a drink, would there be any weird side effects?

The same goes for pot.  I once got stoned right at the start of a cycle and if anything, being stoned made the pain even more intense - never again...it looks like I'll start my meds weeks before the next cycle so wanted to know answers i advance....
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #1 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 12:21am
 
The smokers and 02 thing is bullsh%#! We have a number of smokers who still use 02.......sadly, we still have a long way to go in educating the medical community....sigh.....a few simple precautions, don't smoke while using 02, air your clothes out for 10 minutes before you light up.....it's as stupid as saying if you smoke you can't drive a car cuz when you gas your car up you'll blow yourself up! Shocked  okay...rant over...

Pot is a vasodialator, most of what we use to halt CH attacks are vaso constrictors.....you can see while on cycle, pot is a big no no! Take you to some new pain heights you don't wanna attempt! Wink

Verapamil will tend to plug up the old poop chute, really concentrate on adding fiber to your diet, it tends to put little elvis to sleep at the higher doses, (Like CH isn't bad enough they want to deprive you of sex too!)

I do not know of any problems with drinking alcohol while on verapamil, I'll leave that to some of our more learned members. As you up the dosing on your verapamil, go sparingly on the energy drinks. The taurine in the energy drinks doesn't play well with the verapamil and can cause serious problems.

Joe
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wimsey1
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #2 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 9:15am
 
Everything Joe said...and, if you're serious about O2, research welder's O2 here. You can stick a tank in your garage. Others have gotten it for "aquarium" use to oxygenate water. For sure, where there's a will, there is a way. Also, in addition to all Joe lists, verapamil can make you feel tired. It beats the hits, though. God bless. lance
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #3 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 10:08am
 
An encouraging report re. the doc: sounds like he knows how to deal with CH.

The nice thing about stepwise increases in Verap. is that it gives your body a change to adjust and gives you time to see if any side effects develop. At the higher doses, the regular EKG is recommended.

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Bob Johnson
 
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #4 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 12:33pm
 
Jangly Mark wrote on Jan 28th, 2011 at 11:02pm:
Subject to ECG tests, I will be getting Verapamil....starting at a dose of 80mg daily, and increasing if need be (to a max of 960 mg daily), starting 1 month before my next expected cycle (July).


Well there's an interesting theory I've never heard before.  Any other episodics start verap before their cycle starts?  I think this is worth mentioning to the doc.
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« Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2011 at 12:34pm by his wife »  
 
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Jeannie
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #5 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 12:38pm
 
Yes.... I used to start my Verap before a cycle started.  It was very effective for me.  Once a cycle grabs hold of me I have a very hard time shaking it.  The Verap would keep hits to a minimum.

As we know CH changes so I've had to adjust too.

Jeannie
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #6 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 1:43pm
 
There have been a very few people here whose cycles were so close together and/or so unstable re. timing, that their docs had them on Verap 100% of the time.

There is no medical objection to this approach.
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #7 - Jan 29th, 2011 at 4:58pm
 
Thank you Jeannie & Bob for the feedback.  It really makes sense if you think about it.  Out of 20 years of ch (with only 2 pf years) that always start by June, why put yourself through the total unpleasantness of prednisone waiting for verap to kick in if you could start it a month early to get it in your system.  Then when cycle starts continue to work with doc tweaking the dosage.   Hmmmm, once again I always learn something new everyday here.   Smiley
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #8 - Jan 30th, 2011 at 9:09pm
 
Mark,

Joe hit the nail square on the head with is comments about doc's not prescribing oxygen therapy for CH'ers because they smoke. 

It is difficult enough to educate physicians on the effectiveness of oxygen therapy as the leading acute treatment and abortive for cluster headache.  However, to have a physician deny use of oxygen therapy to a cluster headache sufferer just because he or she smokes is even more exasperating.

This begs the question as to which is the more unethical action by a physician: 

Refusing to prescribe oxygen therapy for a cluster headache suffer because he or she smokes knowing this method of therapy is the most effective acute treatment and abortive for this disorder,

or

Prescribing oxygen therapy as an abortive to a cluster headache sufferer who smokes?

I did some research...  The VA has an excellent paper on this topic you need to download, read, and take to your neurologist.  It's titled:

Ethical Considerations That Arise When a Home Care Patient on Long Term Oxygen Therapy Continues to Smoke

You can find it at the following link:  Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register

A couple key  passages in this paper jump out at you when you read it:

"The most dangerous situation is smoking while actively using oxygen. A study of burn injuries related to oxygen use found that in 24 of 27 cases, the fire started while the patient was lighting a cigarette (Robb, et al., 2003). Another study showed that 89% of the injuries in these fires were facial burns (Ahrens, 2008). The tendency toward facial burns may be amplified because pure oxygen is heavier than air and so may accumulate in facial hair and upper body clothing.

Overall, however, smokers on LTOT account for only a small fraction of deaths in residential fires. A study of data from Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Oklahoma between 2000 and 2007 found a death rate of 3.8 per 10,000,000 population per year from fire incidents related to smoking and LTOT."

[Let's put that death rate in perspective and give it the "So What" test...  There were 3.8 deaths per ten million or 0.038 deaths per 100,000 attributed to smoking associated with the use of oxygen therapy. 

The annual death rate from traffic accidents during that same time frame was 19.1 per 100,000. 

If you do the math, the likelyhood of death from a traffic accident is 19.1/0.038 or 500 times greater than from using oxygen therapy if you're a smoker… but your neurologist didn't tell you not to drive or ride in an automobile.]

Two other interesting passages:

"9.  Denial or withdrawal of LTOT is only justified when the risk to the patient and/or to third parties is so real, substantial, and immediate as to overshadow VHA’s ethical obligation to respect the individual Veteran’s desire to continue this treatment.

10.  VA clinicians and decision-makers who diligently follow the recommendations suggested in this report should not be blamed for bad outcomes that may result from patients smoking in the presence of oxygen."

There are a few things about this document you need to understand that can help place it more clearly in perspective with respect to the use of oxygen therapy as an abortive for cluster headaches.  The first is 98% of all oxygen therapy users are COPD patients who use oxygen therapy at low flow rates with a nasal cannula as a supplement because of low blood oxygenation levels.

Second, unlike cluster headache sufferers who use oxygen therapy to escape excruciating pain, COPD sufferers don't normally experience any pain while they're using supplemental oxygen.  And, as COPD sufferers wear the nose cannula nearly all the time, it's very easy for them to forget it's even there.  That leads to complacency, and for smokers with COPD, that's a recipe for serious trouble if they light a cigarette. 

On the other hand, cluster headache sufferers hold a demand valve, non-rebreathing mask or a mouthpiece with one hand and usually their head with the other hand during oxygen therapy. That makes smoking a very difficult thing to do at the same time as oxygen therapy.

On a related note, if we want to look at relative risk-reward ratios for cluster headache treatments, it's my personal opinion that the long-term use of verapamil as a preventative, and the triptans as abortives, both represent a greater hazard to our health as a cluster headache sufferers than using oxygen therapy.

You'll see what I mean if you take a look at the following link that provides statistics on adverse reactions and side effects attributed to verapamil as reported to the FDA.

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The links relating to death associated with the use of verapamil are sobering:

Index of reports > Cases resulting in death (133).  You'll note that some of these deaths fell into more than one category below:

Completed Suicide (104),  Cardiac Arrest (12),  Drug Toxicity (10),  Poisoning (10),  Cardio-Respiratory Arrest (6),  Intentional Drug Misuse (5),  Poisoning Deliberate (5),  Medication Error (5),  Respiratory Arrest (5),  Intentional Overdose (4)

Try to find similar data on adverse reactions to oxygen therapy...

Let's face it...  smoking is dumb!  There's no rational excuse or reason to smoke... but some of us do even knowing the risks.  Having said that, we don't smoke while pumping gas in our car nor do we smoke while trying to abort a cluster headache with oxygen therapy.  That would be really dumb and a fast way to exit the gene pool.

When it comes to using oxygen therapy as an acute treatment and abortive for cluster headache, it's all a matter of discipline, proper procedures and safety awareness. 

As long as you exercise common sense and follow simple safety procedures, using oxygen therapy to abort cluster headaches is safe.  It's the least expensive acute treatment you can be prescribed as an abortive, and if the flow rate is high enough to support hyperventilation, it can be a very effective abortive with abort times comparable to imitrex injections.

There are two things you need to do when you present your neurologist with the above paper and discuss the relevant facts: 

1. Tell him you are aware of the safety aspects of oxygen therapy and that you are willing to sign a hold-harmless agreement attesting to that.

2. Tell him you have a designated No-Smoking Room, porch, or deck equipped with a fire extinguisher and posted with "No Smoking" and "Oxygen In Use" signs where you can go to use oxygen therapy to abort your cluster headaches and store the oxygen cylinders.

If you do this much, you'll have a better than average chance of receiving the Rx for oxygen therapy from your neurologist. 

Remember, you are your own best advocate when it comes to finding the most effective treatment for you cluster headaches.  Armed with the above information, you have plenty of facts supporting the use of oxygen therapy even if you do smoke.  When you next meet with your neurologist, be polite but firm when you question the logic and rationale behind his decision to refuse you the benefits of oxygen therapy.

Take care and good luck,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jan 30th, 2011 at 9:13pm by Batch »  

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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #9 - Jan 31st, 2011 at 7:51am
 
Great post, Batch! lance
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Jangly Mark
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #10 - Feb 1st, 2011 at 11:10pm
 
Thanks for all the replies Smiley

In response to the posts about O2, I live in a terraced house - I'm not rich...and such things as a garage or conservatory do not exist for me.

As well as that, my Dad is a builder, and basically part demolished and rebuilt the house that I live in....the ground floor is open plan, so, a room for taking 02 is not an option...

As far as tiredness goes, I can be a bit of an insomniac - so, that would really not be a problem (I bet that I'll say different 6 months from now...).

As far as - ahem - 'manly' things go - I'm single.  I tend to get on with girls/women much better than I do with blokes, but, that doesn't exactly help in the romance department.  (If I could have a pound for every time I heard 'I really like you - as a friend', I'd be a wealthy bloke...).

*The more sensitive, please stop reading here*

But, also, I do have my needs...and, if one way or another (I'm trying to be as clean as possible here) they're not met (think male solo pillow talk), I can be a pain in the ass to be around...

As well as the enjoyment factor....

Is there any way around this?
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #11 - Feb 1st, 2011 at 11:51pm
 
Well, if you'd rather smoke in the house and go without the best abortive known to clusterheads, then I guess that's your choice.

Personally, I'd tell the doc to shove it, get your own welder's O2, and smoke outside. But that's just me.
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #12 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 12:34am
 
If I couldn't have oxygen inside I'd be more than happy to sit outside with my oxygen be it sunny, pouring down or snowing just to abort my CHs.

Until you've tried oxygen and see just how effective it can be it's hard to understand why those who use it rave about it so much.
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #13 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 8:10am
 
I just figured this one out: If your dad is a builder, he should have no problem helping you obtain a big tank of welder's O2.
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Linda_Howell
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #14 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 1:25pm
 
Just something I think I would say to that Doctor.  My wife lights candles around the house and we have a gas stove as well as a fireplace.  Would these things also prevent you from prescribing 02?   

Please go the welders route.  There is no reason you should suffer because ofa  clueless physician.
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Jangly Mark
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #15 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 4:15pm
 
Brew wrote on Feb 1st, 2011 at 11:51pm:
Well, if you'd rather smoke in the house and go without the best abortive known to clusterheads, then I guess that's your choice.

Personally, I'd tell the doc to shove it, get your own welder's O2, and smoke outside. But that's just me.
AS I've said before, it's not just me.  I only really smoke in one room of the house anyway...but, there are others to consider...

Welders O2?  Is that a serious suggestion?  Surely not...
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #16 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 4:48pm
 
For real. Welding oxygen, and medical oxygen, both come out of the same containers. Welders need pure oxygen as any contaminants will render the weld weak. Many on the board have been using welding oxygen for years. It requires you lie to the people at the welding shop, tell them you need it to oxygenate your bait tanks or your aquarium. Do not tell them it's for personal use or they won't sell it to you.

Joe
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #17 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 4:50pm
 
Jangly Mark wrote on Feb 2nd, 2011 at 4:15pm:
Brew wrote on Feb 1st, 2011 at 11:51pm:
Well, if you'd rather smoke in the house and go without the best abortive known to clusterheads, then I guess that's your choice.

Personally, I'd tell the doc to shove it, get your own welder's O2, and smoke outside. But that's just me.
AS I've said before, it's not just me.  I only really smoke in one room of the house anyway...but, there are others to consider...

Welders O2?  Is that a serious suggestion?  Surely not...

   You've been here for 183 days,  have you read the O2 info?

         Potter
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #18 - Feb 2nd, 2011 at 5:03pm
 

It is definetly a serious suggestion.   Many, many here use it.  I have a welders tank in my garage as well as medical e-tanks,  which are more portable.  There is no differance in them except welders 02 are not as portable, they cost a lot less to refill and are a bit uglier to look at.  I've  used it for 24 yrs. now.
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Re: Finally officially diagnosed after all these years
Reply #19 - Feb 7th, 2011 at 12:51am
 
Wink Wink My tanks bigger than yours. Cool
the bb
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