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Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info. (Read 1774 times)
MarkG253
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Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info.
Nov 1st, 2013 at 9:31am
 
Hi All,
I went to a new Dr. yesterday in Mass.  He spent an hour and a half with me!! Just talking about my CH history, describing them, when they began, etc.  Just filling him in om my whole history.  I originally went there to find out more about the Clinical trial for the vagus nerve non invasive stimulator.  However,,,, I personally was not willing to set aside my abortive medicine for the trial... I'm sure, as you all know, they are just too painful to NOT try to get rid of it.
That being said, I currently take 480mg Verap er daily.  The Dr. said that in his experience, he does not feel that Verap works during Chronic CH.  I don't think it really helps me either, since I still get CH's daily.
After speaking with the Dr., he decided to try me on lithium, since I have never been on it prior. 
Just curious to hear other peoples positive or negative thoughts on it.
Thanks,
Mark G
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Guiseppi
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Re: Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info.
Reply #1 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:21pm
 
I used lithium as my primary prevent for close to 20 years. Originally at 900 mg a day it was blocking 90% of my hits. As I aged it began to lose its effectiveness,, last cycle I was using it at 1200 mg a day and it would block 60-70% of my hits.

I was working full time as a deputy sheriff, and if I didn't tell you I was on it you'd never know. There is a little bit of lethargy, nothing a cup of coffee won't overcome. (forget the Hollywood stereotype of the mouth breathing zombie on lithium!) You pee a LOT the first few weeks, it's a salt and your body tries to rinse it out as fast as you take it in. Takes a few blood tests when you first go on it to establish your therapeutic level as it's not based on body mass but on HOW your body processes the lithium. You need to have your thyroid levels checked periodically as it can have an affect on that but was never an issue for me.

Hope it works as well for you, it was my silver bullet against the beast for a long time!

Joe
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"Somebody had to say it" is usually a piss poor excuse to be mean.
 
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Bob Johnson
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Re: Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info.
Reply #2 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 1:46pm
 
Lithium is effective (print the PDF file, below) but, I suspect, most would choose it as a secondary med. The drawbacks are need for blood work to minitor for correct levels, side effects (hence blood work), and some folks complain about some degree of foggy brain. Not arguments for not using, however.

Might suggest boosting our Verp  level.
--
Headache. 2004 Nov;44(10):1013-8.   


Individualizing treatment with verapamil for cluster headache patients.

Blau JN, Engel HO.


    Background.-Verapamil is currently the best available prophylactic drug for patients experiencing cluster headaches (CHs). Published papers usually state 240 to 480 mg taken in three divided doses give good results, ranging from 50% to 80%; others mention higher doses-720, even 1200 mg per day. In clinical practice we found we needed to adapt dosage to individual's time of attacks, in particular giving higher doses before going to bed to suppress severe nocturnal episodes. A few only required 120 mg daily. We therefore evolved a scheme for steady and progressive drug increase until satisfactory control had been achieved. Objective.-To find the minimum dose of verapamil required to prevent episodic and chronic cluster headaches by supervising each individual and adjusting the dosage accordingly. Methods.-Consecutive patients with episodic or chronic CH (satisfying International Headache Society (IHS) criteria) were started on verapamil 40 mg in the morning, 80 mg early afternoon, and 80 mg before going to bed. Patients kept a diary of all attacks, recording times of onset, duration, and severity. They were advised, verbally and in writing, to add 40 mg verapamil on alternate days, depending on their attack timing: with nocturnal episodes the first increase was the evening dose and next the afternoon one; when attacks occurred on or soon after waking, we advised setting an alarm clock 2 hours before the usual waking time and then taking the medication. Patients were followed-up at weekly intervals until attacks were controlled. They were also reviewed when a cluster period had ended, and advised to continue on the same dose for a further 2 weeks before starting systematic reduction. Chronic cluster patients were reviewed as often as necessary. Results.-Seventy consecutive patients, 52 with episodic CH during cluster periods and 18 with chronic CH, were all treated with verapamil as above. Complete relief from headaches was obtained in 49 (94%) of 52 with episodic, and 10 (55%) of 18 with chronic CH; the majority needed 200 to 480 mg, but 9 in the episodic, and 3 in the chronic group, needed 520 to 960 mg for control. Ten, 2 in the episodic and 8 in the chronic group, with incomplete relief, required additional therapy-lithium, sumatriptan, or sodium valproate. One patient withdrew because verapamil made her too tired, another developed Stevens-Johnson syndrome, and the drug was withdrawn. Conclusions.-Providing the dosage for each individual is adequate, preventing CH with verapamil is highly effective, taken three (occasionally with higher doses, four) times a day. In the majority (94%) with episodic CH steady dose increase under supervision, totally suppressed attacks. However in the chronic variety only 55% were completely relieved, 69% men, but only 20% women. In both groups, for those with partial attack suppression, additional prophylactic drugs or acute treatment was necessary. (Headache 2004;44:1013-1018).

=======================================
SLOW-RELEASE VERAPAMIL

Dr. Sheftell applauded the protocol for verapamil used by Dr. Goadsby and colleagues, which entailed use of short-acting verapamil in increments of 80 mg. “This method was suggested by Lee Kudrow, MD, 20 years ago as an alternative to slow-release verapamil,” Dr. Sheftell noted.

“I would agree with using short-acting verapamil, rather than the sustained-release formulation, in cluster headache,” he said. “I prefer the short-acting formulation with regard to ability to titrate more accurately and safely. My clinical experience anecdotally demonstrates improved responses when patients are switched from sustained-release verapamil to short-acting verapamil.”

Dr. Goadsby agreed that his clinical experience was similar. “There are no well-controlled, placebo-controlled, dose-ranging studies to direct treatment. This is one of those areas where clinicians who treat cluster headache have to combine what modicum of evidence is available with their own clinical experience,” Dr. Sheftell commented.
====
Don't be put off--but an essential warning when using high doses.
--
J Headache Pain. 2011 Apr;12(2):173-6. Epub 2011 Jan 22.
Cardiac safety in cluster headache patients using the very high dose of verapamil (=720 mg/day).
Lanteri-Minet M, Silhol F, Piano V, Donnet A.
SourceDépartement d'Evaluation et traitement de la Douleur Médecine palliative, Pôle Neurosciences Cliniques du CHU de Nice, Hôpital Pasteur Avenue de la Voie Romaine, 06002 Nice Cedex, France. lanteri-minet.m@chu-nice.fr

Abstract
Use of high doses of verapamil in preventive treatment of cluster headache (CH) is limited by cardiac toxicity. We systematically assess the cardiac safety of the very high dose of verapamil (verapamil VHD) in CH patients. Our work was a study performed in two French headache centers (Marseilles-Nice) from 12/2005 to 12/2008. CH patients treated with verapamil VHD (=720 mg) were considered with a systematic electrocardiogram (EKG) monitoring. Among 200 CH patients, 29 (14.8%) used verapamil VHD (877±227 mg/day). Incidence of EKG changes was 38% (11/29). Seven (24%) patients presented bradycardia considered as nonserious adverse event (NSAE) and four (14%) patients presented arrhythmia (heart block) considered as serious adverse event (SAE). Patients with EKG changes (1,003±295 mg/day) were taking higher doses than those without EKG changes (800±143 mg/day), but doses were similar in patients with SAE (990±316 mg/day) and those with NSAE (1,011±309 mg/day). Around three-quarters (8/11) of patients presented a delayed-onset cardiac adverse event (delay =2 years). Our work confirms the need for systematic EKG monitoring in CH patients treated with verapamil. Such cardiac safety assessment must be continued even for patients using VHD without any adverse event for a long time.

© The Author(s) 2011. This article is published with open access at Springerlink.com

PMID:21258839[PubMed]
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Bob Johnson
 
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Marc
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Re: Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info.
Reply #3 - Nov 1st, 2013 at 10:07pm
 
Mark,

Just a few years ago, the combination of Lithium and Verapamil was clearly recognized as a bit of silver bullet for chronics, based on actual experience of sufferers on this board. That has been all but forgotten now........see Bob Johnson's link above.

Take control of your treatment and guide your physician to the sources of information that he/she needs to see in order to effectively help you. If your doctor is willing to accept your payment, but can't respond accordingly, fire the SOB and move on.

There is simply no valid excuse for medical community ignorance of our malady in today's information age.

Marc
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neuropath
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Re: Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info.
Reply #4 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 10:58am
 
I have been using Lithium for 4 years as chronic.

For the first 2 years 1,000 mg were able to contain a high cycle, now 1,500 mg are not enough to keep the beast at bay and upping the dosage with a drug that has a very narrow therapeutic window is fraught with risk.

Regular blood tests are a must. More frequently in the beginning. I now do a lithium, thyroid, liver and kidney test every 3 months.

Side effects are very manageable, if not negligible. Some minor tremors and increased runs to the toilet are early side effects, both of which went away after a few weeks. Some lethargy but overall not worse than what you go through with a comparable dose of Verapamil.

I have found it a viable option but don't consider it the long-term silver bullet. Worth a try nevertheless, for it is certainly nowhere near as scary a drug as some people want you to believe.

Good luck.
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lwatson8
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Re: Any Lithium Users?? Just looking for info.
Reply #5 - Nov 2nd, 2013 at 1:43pm
 
Mark,

I have found it to be a very effective medication to break the cycle. The first episode about 7 years ago ended the cycle in a couple of months. This time it has gradually reduced the frequency and intensity over 7 months. I currently take 600mg/day which was just dropped from 900. I have been able to add Verapamil and I believe the cycle all but broken. The Vitamin D-3 regime is working now while it was not in April.

I would reiterate the importance of regular blood checks. It has the possibility of kidney or liver damage. As the previous post indicates the difference between a therapuetic dose and a toxic one is small and thus the need for periodic checks. Those checks allow for adjustments. For me the side effects have included lethargy and tremors, both of which are preferable to the headaches. I'm working with my neurologist and GP to make this a temporary medication. In reviewing the other uses of lithium it is clear that others are on higher doses of this for years.

Good Luck

Lars
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