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B14CK5H33P
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #25 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 8:06pm »
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Wow! I wouldn't have posted to this thread, however:
 
If EVERYONE pays their 'fair share' - and that is 40'000 a year....
 
Um, I don't think there are many people in my town who MAKE $40'000 a year! Can you say 'homeless population explosion and several prisons crowding up with people who are so in debt to 'uncle sam' that they wind up serving time after being on the streets for a few years and racking up a huge bill to the government.
 
Just my two cents worth.  
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #26 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 8:31pm »
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So then you agree that we need a tax system that isn't flat?  Some people should pay more than others? The 60 pound kid should carry a lighter pack than the 220 pound economic linebackers?  
 
Government spending is outa control. Wealth is becoming more concentrated. In spite of a decade long burst in productivity, most American workers are making about what they did ten years ago in terms of purchasing power.  And Wall Street brokers are taking home million dollar bonuses while the stock market (and 401ks) are at the same level they were 6 years ago.  
 
Buckminster Fuller was right - Its a GRUNCH of Giants.  
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #27 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:12pm »
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Things like the flat tax and other PITA stuff make me look at those who support such things. Mostly people without financial woes love it. Flo is right about the investment versus earned income inequity.  
 
The most prosperous time in our history was when there was largely a "punishing" graduated tax and a lot of people got around it anyway. It's all we talked about. I have nothing against making a lot money so long as people have a little social conscience.  
 
My favorite inequity is the sweet tax breaks given to new buyers of Humvees and the like. There was something like a $30,000 cutoff before you had to pay sales taxes for luxury cars.  Lovely.  
 
Nice going.  
 
Charlie  
 
 
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #28 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 1:41am »
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I don't understand why you don't see the flat tax. Maybe you are looking at an older version of it. I will try to find what version I am referring to.  
 
But with it, everyone pays taxes, including illegals. There are zero taxes taken out of your paycheck, ZERO. You are taxed on what you buy. The price of goods would come down because of the high cost of payroll tax accounting procedures as well as setting up fancy ways businesses and large corporations (and tax savvy small ones too) get around paying taxes.  
 
When the price to do business falls, so does the price of goods, because it falls for all. Inherintly this would produce more profit percentage and increased competition in price for consumer goods.  
 
The government would actually start recieving the money they are supposed to get and there would (theoretically) be less red tape on their end. 70% of the IRS would be abolished, gee that might save some $$$  Some accountants and tax attourneys would probably need to find other work though. If you had any stock in H & R Block, you better get rid of it.
 
If you want the national debt paid down, all you would have to do is legalize marajuana. Tax it and stop paying for the use and sale of it in the form of expensive government programs. It is a joke. It was just on the news the other day, that the only crop bigger than pot is corn. What does the government make on it, squat. How much does it cost the taxpayers, tons.
 
A recent study (I'm sure their are several) show that marajuana is much safer than alcohol (and smokes). When was the last time the police had to go to a domestic emergency call because someone smoked some pot? Maybe when someone stole some pot or sold some pot.
 
I don't smoke it, but I'm not blind as to how much money is being lost here (in fighting it and selling it legally), and it is proven safe (safer than alcohol and smokes). All the former tax people could open up those pot smoking bars like over there in Amsterdam.
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #29 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 3:27am »
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on Dec 29th, 2006, 1:41am, Ob1kanobee wrote:
The price of goods would come down because of the high cost of payroll tax accounting procedures as well as setting up fancy ways businesses and large corporations (and tax savvy small ones too) get around paying taxes.  
 
When the price to do business falls, so does the price of goods, because it falls for all.  
 
 

 
I disagree.  When Nike started making shoes in Indonesia for 90% less cost, the price of new sneakers did not fall.  The net profit of Nike grew.
 
When Coke started making coke overseas, the price of coke didnt fall, their profit went up.
 
The point is, when costs go down, the price of goods doesnt normally seem to follow.  When costs go down, profits go up.
 
 
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #30 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 3:49am »
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hiya    nots.....
 
I haven't seen you since Dallas, sweetie.   How ya doin?
 
Good to see ya, again     Kiss
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #31 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 9:13am »
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on Dec 29th, 2006, 1:41am, Ob1kanobee wrote:
I don't understand why you don't see the flat tax. Maybe you are looking at an older version of it. I will try to find what version I am referring to.  
 
But with it, everyone pays taxes, including illegals. There are zero taxes taken out of your paycheck, ZERO. You are taxed on what you buy. The price of goods would come down because of the high cost of payroll tax accounting procedures as well as setting up fancy ways businesses and large corporations (and tax savvy small ones too) get around paying taxes.  
 
When the price to do business falls, so does the price of goods, because it falls for all. Inherintly this would produce more profit percentage and increased competition in price for consumer goods.  
 
The government would actually start recieving the money they are supposed to get and there would (theoretically) be less red tape on their end. 70% of the IRS would be abolished, gee that might save some $$$  Some accountants and tax attourneys would probably need to find other work though. If you had any stock in H & R Block, you better get rid of it.
 
 

 
What about the law of unintended consequences? Shifting to a sales tax would not necessarily make everything simpler.  
 
It would mean that aliens would pay more taxes - good in the case of some aliens, bad for other aliens and other citizens. If the sales tax on common items went up to 20% or 25%, that would have a major effect on tourism, and would mean that fewer Brazillian tourists would make the sacred pilgrimage to Orlando to worship the mouse. Which means education costs here would go up.  International tourism currently brings in around $1.4 trillion to the US economy, and is responsible for ~6.5 million jobs. I guess if prices in the US go up too much, we could offset that by simply devaluing the dollar??  
 
What gets exempted and what not?  Food and medicine, but where do we draw the line - different states have different laws on this already (food exempt, but not fast food or 'candy').  'Medicine' is exempt, but does that mean that the price on prescription pharmaceuticals stays the same while vitamins and exercise equipment go up 25%?  Seems like it will get counterproductive and complicated soon.  
 
Is a wheelchair exempt?  Most people would say sure. What about adaptive technology the handicapped need?  Speech recognition technology that some need to function, which other people use as a productivity tool?  All of the sudden, the complicated rules that we eliminated from the bad old system to determine how much tax a handicapped person pays, need to be replicated in the new system. Agencies to develop lists of what is exempt, and who qualifies for what.  
 
And what about the farmer?  The farmer is the only producer that buys retail and sells wholesale.  They currently pay no sales tax and get to deduct the cost of their tractors, seed, fertilizer and fuel.  When prices drop or crops fail, they don't pay income taxes because they don't have much income.  But with a flat tax based on a sales tax, they would pay 25% on these costly investments - at the beginning of the season, long before the harvest!!  Ok, so we'll set another government agency to deal with this, develop and enforce new rules, etc.  And for each of the other unusual sectors of the economy.      
 
Many of the simpler taxes are VATs - Value Added Taxes.  Because charging a 25% sales tax on the full sale price of something makes no sense as an item moves from factory to wholesaler to retailer -  it would add far more than 25% as the rate would be cumulative.  So instead, there is a VAT.  
 
These are only simpler for the consumer, but not for producers.  Producers no longer get exemptions on sales tax for things bought to resell. Instead, they pay sales tax on the item when they buy it, and then charge sales tax on the increase in value of the items when they sell.  So the theatre pays tax on popcorn, salt, fake butter, and the bag, then they calculate the price differences, and add tax to the increased price of each component.  Simple? Yes if you have a large chain of theatres and a staff of full time programmers and accountants.  Not so simple for the little guy that just started a restaurant and tries to incorporate the cost of new chairs and kitchen improvements into the price of a plate of spaghetti.  
 
We don't have to change the rate structure to simplify the tax code - exemptions could be eliminated and rules streamlined.
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #32 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 10:04am »
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on Dec 28th, 2006, 10:42am, burnt-toast wrote:

 Our nation is $8.7 trillion in debt with a trade deficit nearing $1 Trillion.  Our government borrows $2 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat.  
Tom      

And how much has the US loaned to other countries, and is waiting to be paid back? And how many loans has the US forgiven?
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #33 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 12:15pm »
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Our nation is $8.7 trillion in debt with a trade deficit nearing $1 Trillion.  Our government borrows $2 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat.  
Tom  
 
And how much has the US loaned to other countries, and is waiting to be paid back? And how many loans has the US forgiven?  

Certainly nothing remotely close to this is owed to the world and mostly the Communist countries that hold out mortages
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #34 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 1:35pm »
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If the sales tax on common items went up to 20% or 25%,

 
The tax would never go to 25 or 30%. Politicians would have pay to that much too. A federal sales of about 4 to 6% would bring in more money than is now collected under the current system.
« Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2006, 8:07pm by BobG » IP Logged

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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #35 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 2:01pm »
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First off, Nike is a brand name that has a high following. People buy Nike, because they want Nike. They have no competition. Nike could charge whatever they want within reason and get it. Their profits also went through the ceiling when they signed Tiger Woods. People buy Nike for Nike.  
 
Under the Flat Tax the price of goods would come down and the consumer would have to play a part in that as well. Look at Doc Martins (it is a shoe), they used to be made in England (maybe they still are, but in the states they come from China). I personally stopped buying them, because the quality now sucks compared to what it used to be. Now if some consumers still want to buy them, then they are idiots.
 
The price of a mercedes probably woudn't come down either. But again, this is a company with a following.  
 
However, most items that would compete with one another, would lower their final value. Look at Wallmart for example. It costs them less to do business than most other retailers and it is reflected in their price of goods. Shop Wallmart then another big chain and compare the prices of items. By your theory, Wallmart should just charge the same as everyone else and pocket the difference, increasing their profit margin.  
 
If you are using Nike as an example, there is some sustance to your argument. But like I said, these are goods that have a certain following of people, and they can charge pretty much what they want within reason.
 
The flat tax by the way, would not be anywhere near 25% to 30%. You lost your mind. That is the problem. Everyone that is against the flat tax keeps thinking of these high percentages. Where are you getting this info. from? Someone has poisoned your mind. That is the most outragious thing I have heard! GEEEEZZZZ
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #36 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 2:03pm »
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Is that wall up yet?
 
The tax system is just as broken as ouor immigration.
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #37 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 2:28pm »
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Bear with me, my post is long and covers two pages.  Many may disagree but here goes.
 
I’m all for a flat tax, but before we go there, controls on government growth and spending are desperately needed.  These elements alone are suppressing economic freedom, growth, personal savings and the ability of average individuals to participate in a free society.
 
In the late 30’s and early 40’s, 12% of our national income was consumed by non-producing government operations.  This left 88% of the U.S. economy a free market in the hands of a private sector that produced and consumed goods of economic value.  The U.S. economy flourished and a large middle class developed under this free economic system.
 
In comparison 44% of today’s U.S. economy is directly dependent on federal, state and local government spending.  In 1940, 4 million Americans worked for the government and 11 million worked in manufacturing, versus 21.5 million government employees and 14.5 million manufacturing workers today.  This shift from producers of wealth to consumers of wealth is transforming the U.S. into an unstable socialistic society.      
 
The U.S. government was established with limited powers not as a be-all/do-all entity.  Unless something changes bankruptcy and economic collapse is a certainty. Government at all levels now costs a family of 4 an estimated $50,000 or double the amount of 1960.  Steadily increasing taxpayer debt at unsustainable levels is a recipe for economic and social disaster.  
        
Unchecked deficit spending has created economic distortions in our economy that concentrates wealth/power within an elite, monopolistic and bureaucratic class with the most access to government.  It dangerously inflates economic strength by ignoring the growing burden of debt imposed on the general population.  Through the 1930’s into the early 40’s the national debt was essentially zero.  It grew/remained around $0.5 Trillion through the late 70’s then skyrocketed - $1 Trillion by 1982, $2 Trillion by 1988, 3 Trillion by 1992, 4 Trillion by 1996, $5.5 Trillion by 2000, $6.7 Trillion by 2003 and nearly $8.7 Trillion today.
 
Where is the bulk of our money going and what is increasing taxpayer debt supporting?  Nearly 60% of current government spending is transfer payments - the government collects tax revenue from one source and redistributes it directly to others.  The alphabet-soup of a thousand or so federal regulatory agencies, boards, commissions and committees created to intrude into virtually every aspect of our lives.  The nearly 2,000 federal subsidy programs that increased 44 percent since 1990 alone and growing bureaucracy that administers them.  These are handouts, nothing more than government shifting wealth from taxpaying masses to private, public and foreign entities of the government’s choosing.
« Last Edit: Dec 29th, 2006, 2:30pm by burnt-toast » IP Logged

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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #38 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 2:29pm »
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Meanwhile average taxpayers are burdened by a double dose of un-checked government growth and spending.  
 
Despite federal government growth/spending increases, the feds significantly cut subsidies to state/local government.   States embarked on massive new spending in the 80s and 90s before Federal revenues dried up but now struggle to float this new excess by issuing bonds, inventing new taxes and raising taxes to avoid much needed cuts.  At the state and local level, government takes money directly from citizens through taxes and if money comes up short issues bonds that disguise deficit spending by increasing long-term taxpayer debt, receives federal subsidies, raises taxes or cuts spending, there are no other choices.   State/local governments are fleecing taxpayers at every turn.  The number of state and local government employees increased 474% percent since 1946, versus a 212% growth in the U.S. population.  Average earnings of state and local government employees are 31% higher than private-sector employees, not counting the richer benefits of government employees that include $1.4 trillion in taxpayer funded retirement and medical plans alone.  
   
We live under what Paul Gottfried calls the managerial state - a seemingly permanent bureaucratic government subject to little control by the people it is supposed to represent and be accountable to.  Your financial stability is not the concern of a government that established the central bank and the large/monopolistic economic system it spawns.  The institution of the central bank provides government with unlimited power to freely print all the money it needs to support its excessiveness, without regard to the financial liabilities being imposed on the future of the population.  
   
In today’s system of government, there are few mechanisms in place that operate as an effective check on public looting.  The framers of the constitution didn't imagine and openly opposed centralized power generated by institutions such as the central bank, income taxes and a permanent bureaucratic class.  Nor did they imagine the explosive growth of the public/corporate welfare and the warfare state that these institutions underwrite and entrench in our economy at taxpayer expense.
      
One check on power does remain, public opinion and united public outrage.  In light of the impending bankruptcy of the federal government at our expense, where is the outrage? At some point, when it becomes clear that the present level of government extravagance cannot continue, and we face the consequences as a society, “The People” are going to be desperate for answers.
 
Ideally, the system must be fixed before a crisis that results in a complete social and financial meltdown. Given what we know about government today however, this crisis will not be proactively stopped and will instead lead to social upheavals of a kind and degree that cannot be imagined in this country.  There are ways to avoid this crisis, but change can only begin with massive and united public outcry for an end to the recklessness that an all intrusive/controlling government bureaucracy is feeding on.  
 
Tom   
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #39 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 4:09pm »
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At some point, when it becomes clear that the present level of government extravagance cannot continue, and we face the consequences as a society, “The People” are going to be desperate for answers.
 
Ideally, the system must be fixed before a crisis that results in a complete social and financial meltdown. Given what we know about government today however, this crisis will not be proactively stopped and will instead lead to social upheavals of a kind and degree that cannot be imagined in this country.  There are ways to avoid this crisis, but change can only begin with massive and united public outcry for an end to the recklessness that an all intrusive/controlling government bureaucracy is feeding on.    
 
I'm glad someone else recognizes this. Unfortunately, there will one day be an economic collapse. It is inevitable. Doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad thing. Sometimes things happen for a reason which appear to be terrible, but then it puts things back in check and we start over. This is the way it has always been.  
 
Everything is either positive or negative depending on how you look at it, although it is usually easier said than done. I guess the truth just hurts sometimes.
 
Speaking of bankruptcy, I had to laugh because of all the new rules and guidelines that were passed with the new laws pertaing to it. This was ofcourse all pushed by the lobbyist (for the banks) pretty hard. Now they are whining and crying because they are not making as much money as people are borrowing less (this was all on the news and in the paper). For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction!
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135447360 135447360   mondocharlie   mondocharlie
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #40 on: Dec 29th, 2006, 8:58pm »
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Speaking of bankruptcy, I had to laugh because of all the new rules and guidelines that were passed with the new laws pertaing to it.

 
Nice K Street lobbyists did this. The new rules were basically written in my credit card companies.  
 
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