fly gas wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 7:27am:



They do.  

Looking at it...

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The chiropractic lead-in brings us, AK.

fly gas wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 8:40am:


Just a glitch, a little hurdle.  Difficult for objective decisions.


 

fly gas wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 8:40am:



Following the page-long criticism from the balanced Wiki, lastly are position statements from U.S. and Danish Chiropractic Associations.  While the U.S. reads neither here nor there, the Danish add:

Chiropractors may not infer or imply that the Danish chiropractic profession endorses AK to be legitimate or effective, nor may the word/title chiropractic/chiropractor be used or associated with the practice of AK.



Wiki also adds:

See also

List of pseudosciences and pseudoscientific concepts
ideomotor effect
magical thinking
Observer-expectancy effect
ad hoc hypothesis


The list of skeptical evaluations is long.


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fly gas wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 7:27am:

fly gas wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 3:00pm:


The link I pasted was the one you mentioned that was:

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It was difficult to stumble over these phrases every few sentences:

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The tenth most used technique by chiros, and this quote by the chiro asso is neither here nor there:  

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You left out what the Danish Chiro Asso said:

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It is the link you said was objective and non judgmental.  Here is the black and white again:

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Are you saying these are all untrue or misleading from the site you said was objective and non judgmental?


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No, I mentioned the long list of skeptical evaluations.  Let me list them here:

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And I listed similar interests from the site:

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Not really.  It doesn't hamper gathering testimonials from a CH site.

Kirk, appreciate the feedback. I know there's nothing that will work for everyone, maybe i just got lucky, now 15 times in a row, over 21 years.
As to AK, maybe if someone has gone through all other available treatments, it is worth a try. About 2-400 bucks to go through the whole thing, more or less, I don't know how others charge, but I've spent a lot more than that on a single doctor's visit or a single  worthless prescription.
As to this other guy, I won't waste my time. Do your own independent research, read these sites for yourselves, maybe ask your own practitioners and make up your own mind. Its not as black and white as it is painted by standard medicine, drug companies and others with irons in the fire, not for AK, or for a lot of other non standard approaches to medicine.
Who knows. If a few people try it and get relief, that would make me very happy. If my experience is unique among all CH sufferers, then I am sorry beyond words that I have falsely gotten your hopes up,
that is certainly not why I've shared my experiences here.

The way this usually plays out is that flygas keeps pecking away on the subject of chiro and AK. Eventually he/she gets more and more frustrated because no one else will jump on the tilt-a-whirl with him/her and starts to claim that they are closed minded. and then, again if the usual pattern exists, it heightens and someone storms away muttering.

Definitions for everyone from Wiki:

Iridology (also known as iridodiagnosis[1]) is an alternative medicine technique whose proponents believe that patterns, colors, and other characteristics of the iris can be examined to determine information about a patient's systemic health. Practitioners match their observations to iris charts which divide the iris into zones corresponding to specific parts of the human body. Iridologists see the eyes as "windows" into the body's state of health.
As it is not a method of treatment but a diagnostic tool, its practitioners often study other branches of alternative medicine, such as naturopathy.[citation needed].

Kinesiology, also known as Human Kinetics, is the science of human movement. It focuses on how the body functions and moves. A kinesiological approach applies scientific and evidence based medical principles towards the analysis, preservation and enhancement of human movement in all settings and populations.[1] Kinesiologists work in research, the fitness industry, clinically, and in industrial environments.[2] It is not to be confused with Applied Kinesiology, a controversial alternative medicine technique.

AK: Applied Kinesiology (AK) is a practice of using manual muscle-strength testing for medical diagnosis and a subsequent determination of prescribed therapy. According to followers of the theory, it gives feedback on the functional status of the body.
AK is a practice within the realm of alternative medicine and is therefore different from "kinesiology," which is the scientific study of human movement. AK has been criticized on theoretical and empirical grounds,[1] and characterized as pseudoscience.[2]

AP = Acupuncture physician (?)

WTF = well, you know.....

BEDH = beating a dead horse

Easy does it young bookmer, life is too short to get frustrated.
You may have noticed, but in life, some people actually are close minded. Some are not.

Maybe some people have tried AK, will try it in the future, meanwhile, some people will never try it. So be it.

Why some people have a zealotlike need to bash it when they have never tried it, who knows. Maybe they honestly think that some retired blogger and the Danish Chiro Assn are the primary experts on medicine in the world. BTW, the Danish paper allows their Chiros to practice AK, their 1998 position is that they want to make sure AK is not presented as Chiro, fair enough, no big too-doo.

There are studies and positions that have AK as spawn of the devil, those that embrace it, like the American Chiro Assn
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According to the American Chiropractic Association, Applied Kinesiology is the 10th most frequently used chiropractic techniques in the United States, with 37.6% of chiropractors employing this method and 12.9% of patients being treated with it.[33]

    "This is an approach to chiropractic treatment in which several specific procedures may be combined. Diversified/manipulative adjusting techniques may be used with nutritional interventions, together with light massage of various points referred to as neurolymphatic and neurovascular points. Clinical decision-making is often based on testing and evaluating muscle strength."

As a lot of negative studies have been presented, a few positive ones for balance incl:
Perot C, Meldener R, Goubel F (1991). "Objective measurement of proprioceptive technique consequences on muscular maximal voluntary contraction during manual muscle testing". Agressologie 32 (10 Spec No): 471–4. PMID 1844106.
Frost, Robert, Applied Kinesiology: A Training Manual and Reference Book of Basic Priciples and Practices', p. 4, North Atlantic Books, 2002. available online.
Schmitt WH, Leisman G (December 1998). "Correlation of applied kinesiology muscle testing findings with serum immunoglobulin levels for food allergies". Int. J. Neurosci. 96 (3-4): 237–44. PMID 10069623.

It seems part of the dark underbelly of medicine, is that those with incredible financial stakes, can churn out studies that can say most anything. If their first study doesn't support their position, hell, just hide it, and do another. Drug companies make billions thus, selling drugs that don't work, or that have side effects that hurt or kill. Just read your newspaper, happens all the time.

The one thread that I did get reading some of these, is that AK is a pretty much new practice, founded in 1964, and licensing and training is sometimes called to question. As with any doctor, it is valid to question a practitioner's training and experience in the field. Heck, you wouldn't want your brain surgery to be done by a part time neurosurgeon who has never done the operation before.

If you're waiting for a definitive study on efficacy on AK to CH, rotsaluck. Studies by the AK Inst will be positive, studies by competing standard medicines or drug companies will be pretty negative, what would you expect.

Still, in a syndrome that looks at hallucinogenic drugs, native American herbs, hot showers and oxygen pushes, maybe AK  is one more thing that MAY offer relief to a few of us. I don't know.

With all due respect to the google types, I could care less about your studies.

All I asked, as it seemed to work for me, was if anyone else out there has any EXPERIENCE with Applied Kinesiology that they might want to share with other sufferers?

As per the usual, some drug company bashing worked into the conversation as well.

As I've said to you before; when you hope that others will "try it", meaning take time and resources to try something that has consistently presented very, very low odds of helping cluster headache, I see it as a sad, waste of precious time and money. Two things, that if applied with care and focus, can help a large percentage of cluster sufferers.

I would ask you to imagine a cluster sufferer who is desperate for help. They are getting hit three times a night, they are worried about their job, their family and how the heck they are going to get any relief from what they are going through. If they are new to this CH world do you recommend they schedule an appointment with an applied kinesiologist or talk to a doctor and teach them how to present info to get oxygen? Do you present information that can help them understand how triptans can be part a balanced approach to abortives? Do you, in effect, try to teach them a way out that has a reasonable percentage of success? Or a shot in the dark?

So your choice. Do you take the feedback you've been offered? Which is essentially, we haven't seen a lot folks claiming success with these approaches or do you keep doing what I've predicted you'd keep doing. And do you play it out to the end and walk away muttering what a bunch of closed minded idiots we are, or familiarize yourself with this community of broad minded cluster headache sufferers and supporters. It's your choice.

Could some-one explain for me what is Applied Kinesiology, in simple words, didn’t totally understand it, looked it up in wiki but some what seems very un organized, is it an alternative treatment, I never heard of this before this morning …..

Michael

Michael, I’m with you. And after all that jargon I still don’t understand, and I want to keep it that way now!

I thought it was that quack stuff I have seen on 60 minuets where they pull a fake tumor out of someone (add some fake blood) and called them healed.

fly gas wrote on Dec 6^th, 2008 at 8:40am:


In a balanced topic, it's unfortunate some posts interfered with your disregard of average people