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123 Days PF And I Think I know Why (Read 533144 times)
Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2200 - Feb 20th, 2015 at 9:27am
 
Hey Avalon,

Welcome to CH.com.  You've come to the right place.  Good questions too, but let's star with your headaches. 

Have you talked to your PCP or a neurologist about your headaches?  If not, you should.  Headaches are not normal.

Regarding vitamin D3 taken as part of Dr. Stasha Gominak's regimen or part of the anti-inflammatory regimen many cluster headache sufferers here at CH.com take to prevent their CH. 

Both regimen are very similar.  Dr. Gominak and I have discussed both regimen and she convinced me to add the 3-month course of vitamin B 50.  Both regimen result in better, more restful sleep.  We also suggest the vitamin D3 be taken with the largest meal of the day to increase absorption.

We start with higher doses of vitamin D3 than Dr. Gominak.  She shoots for a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 60 to 80 ng/mL which requires a vitamin D3 intake of 5000 to 10,000 IU/day plus all the cofactors.

As cluster headache sufferers, (CH'ers) we shoot for a target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 ng/mL and that requires roughly 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 plus all the cofactors.

As you can see from the following chart developed by Dr. Robert Heaney, MD, it takes 5,000 IU/day of vitamin D3 to achieve a 25(OH)D response of 60 ng/mL, and that a vitamin D3 dose of 1000 to 2000 IU/day is too low to achieve a meaningful therapeutic effect.

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Regarding the spaciness and foggy feeling during the day...  How much sleep are you getting at night?  I've survey results from 127 CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen and there are no reports of spaciness or foggy feeling during the day.

What other medications are you taking?

The "Go To" link with info on all the anti-inflammatory supplements, their doses, drug interactions and contraindications follows:

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The following table represents the latest list of anti-inflammatory regimen supplements and doses:

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I've found the following supplements shown by brand in the photo below are formulated with most of the supplements we need.  I buy them at Costco, but you should be able to find similar formulations at most Vitamin Shoppes, supermarkets, Wall-Mart or over the Internet:

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If you can’t get to a Costco outlet, a CH’er in the UK has found a source for all the needed supplements at iherb.com.  See his post at the following link for details on how to order them over the Internet:

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The vitamin B 50 is not shown.  You’ll need a 3-month course of vitamin B 50 to handle any deficiencies among the seven B vitamins.  Although the Super K with vitamin K2 complex isn't essential in preventing CH, it is needed to handle the increased serum calcium made available by taking vitamin D3 at the doses we take.

There are a growing number of studies finding the super K2 complex helps direct calcium away from soft tissues and arteries directing it instead to bones and teeth improving overall bone mineral density.

There are also a number of studies that have addressed the optimum ratio of calcium-magnesium supplements.  The general consensus is to keep these two supplements at a 2:1, magnesium:calcium ratio.  Many of us have found 400 mg/day magnesium is sufficient.

We've found that taking a vitamin D3 dose of 5000 to 10,000 IU/day depletes magnesium rapidly unless we take at least 400 mg/day magnesium...  Hand and leg cramps are an indication you're not taking sufficient amount of magnesium

Hope this helps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2201 - Feb 23rd, 2015 at 10:42am
 
Hi Everyone!
Time for a group update on this recent cycle.
So far I'm 22 days along. Of those 22, I've had eight headache days for a total of 10 hits. Three hits have been intense enough I needed to resort to aborting them with Oxygen. And I've not had to use Imitrex once, (yet).

After experiencing the second hit and I became certain that this was indeed a new cycle starting, I began taking the D3 regimen loading dose recommended by Batch (I had accidentally "burned down" my D3 and then got a decent cold virus).

So far this is the most mild cycle I've had in my life. The pain has never climbed beyond a kip 5 or 6. Some headaches have been so mild and short lived I wondered if I was actually experiencing one.

By comparison, my last cycle four years ago: in 22 days I had 17 headache days with up to 10 hits per day (I would abort with O2, then would get another hit an hour later, and repeat that scenario 6-7 times; and then resort to Imitrex for a longer lasting PF period). I was using two nasal spray Imitrex per day during most of those days. And the pain was always in the kip 8-9 range.

So, I'm more convinced the D3 is doing its thing.

It seems, however, that as this cycle is progressing it is getting a bit more intense, as is usual for my cycle; thought still not as terrible as what I'm historically used to.

Yesterday morning and again today I needed to abort with O2 (two days in a row...hmmm?). Though at least the CH stays gone once the O2 has done its thing; no "rebound" headaches so far this cycle. 
And I've noticed a "pattern" that I've been on a maintenance dose of 20,000 IU per day, but after 3 days virtually PF, I get a more intense hit. So then I up-dose to 50,000 IU and am fine for several days at 20,000 then get hit again.

Batch, as always, any input is appreciated.
That's about all for now, I'll keep everyone posted as to further developments.
Gary




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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2202 - Feb 23rd, 2015 at 12:05pm
 
Well, I spoke too soon.
Got a hit just now at 11:30 and over twenty minutes it started to ramp up to a kip 6 and since I've got work to do I snorted an Imitrex.
I thought about using O2 but that can take me up to 10 mins to abort and I needed something faster.
Still, first us of Imitrex for this cycle, which is saying something.
Gary
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2203 - Feb 23rd, 2015 at 1:53pm
 
Hey Gary,

Thanks for the updates.  I know what you're going through.  The good news is the transient hits will dissipate as your 25(OH)D serum concentration builds and the cold symptoms fully subside.

I discovered this exact same pattern in 2012, while doing one of my 25(OH)D reserve burn down tests by intentionally stopping the entire regimen.  It took a week to deplete my 25(OH)D down to the first hit.  What I hadn't planned was coming down with a cold at the same time.

I restarted the regimen and doubled the daily dose to 20,000 IU/day as I had during previous burn down tests fully expecting no further hits...  but $hit happened... and the hits didn't stop. 

It took nearly a week with one or two hits a night and the clue bird making repeated low passes before I connected the dots...  Low 25(OH)D, viral infection (cold) and an immune system response...  Two laws had gone into effect at the same time...  The law of unintended consequences (the cold) and the law of supply and demand (the cold and immune system response were likely consuming vitamin D3 as fast as I was taking it).

It took two days at 50,000 IU/day vitamin D3 and 600 mg/day magnesium to get me back to a pain free state.  I kept my vitamin D3 intake at 20,000 IU/day until the last of the cold symptoms... a nagging cough finally disappeared.  In short, lesson learned.

Regarding oxygen therapy not working fast enough...  have you tried my latest method?  It's basically hyperventilating with room air at forced vital capacity tidal volumes for 30 seconds followed by a lung full of 100% oxygen that's held for 30 seconds.  Repeat this sequence two or three times an you'll be surprised how fast you can abort a CH.

See the following link for all the details:

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Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2204 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 8:27am
 
Thanks Batch, I didn't know about your revised room air/O2 trick. I will certainly be trying that one!
No headache this morning but some weird shadow that felt like the beast was in there at full force, trying to break out but couldn't and didn't know how. That lasted about half an hour and is now gone.
To help keep it down I took ½ tsp baking soda in water and popped a 2,000 IU D3 at the back of my mouth and held it there.
I'm loving all these new tricks!
Gary
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2205 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 9:11am
 
Well, once again I spoke too soon.
An hour later I got hit and hard - a kip 8 to 9. Before it ramped up I did the room air/O2 trick and after 5 minutes the pain was so intense I needed to resort to Imitrex.
Next time, if this "mild hit - major hit" repeats itself, I'll hit the O2 for that first, less intense CH and have a Red Bull on hand to chug and see if I can get a different result.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2206 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:26pm
 
Gary,

The rogue heavy hits may indicate you're still fighting off the remnants of your last cold.  I've sent you a pm with some additional suggestions.

Regarding the latest method of oxygen therapy...  Did you experience any symptoms of paresthesia when you inhaled and held the lungful of 100% oxygen? 

You should have experienced a very slight tingling or prickling sensation to your face, lips and fingertips shortly after you started holding your breath.  If you didn't, practice the following forced exhalation technique and hyperventilation procedure before your next hit. 

Stand with jaw dropped like saying the word "Haw."  This gives the diaphragm full range of movement to ventilate the lungs as completely as possible.

Exhale rapidly and forcefully until it feels like your lungs are empty... they're not.  At that point do an abdominal crunch like doing situps and hold the chest squeeze until your exhaled breath makes a wheezing sound for a couple seconds.  This will squeeze out another half to full liter of exhaled breath that's highest in CO2 concentration.

Then without any delay, inhale rapidly and fully from the diaphragm and repeat the forced exhalation technique.   You should be able to complete 10 inhalation-exhalation cycles in 30 seconds.  When you exhale for the 10th time, hold the squeeze for at least 4 seconds before inhaling the 100% oxygen.

The goal of this method of hyperventilation is to blow off CO2 faster than your body generates it through normal metabolism. This increases blood pH making it more alkaline.  The increased alkalinity enables blood hemoglobin to offload CO2 more completely and upload more oxygen to aid in the CH abort process.

If you've done this properly, you'll experience the symptoms of paresthesia when you inhale and hold the lungful of 100% oxygen.  The slight tingling/prickling sensations should last for 20 seconds then dissipate. Try to relax while holding the lungful of oxygen.  you should feel the CH pain level off and start to drop slightly.

At the end of 30 seconds, exhale forcibly and squeeze till you wheeze then start the entire procedure all over again.

Again, practice makes perfect...

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2015 at 12:26pm by Batch »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2207 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 2:30pm
 
Hi there,
Just got my first blood results today and the D3 has gone from 33 to 163 in five weeks.
Still get the odd twinge, but not much more than that, giving me to believe that I've a little bit more to do and the body is still adjusting.
But, I could'nt be more pleased with the progress.
In the words of the Monkees (for those of us old enough to remember), ...... "I'm a believer".
Keep well,
Peter.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2208 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 2:54pm
 
Hey Peter,

Thanks for the update and good news.  Your CH symptoms should disappear completely as you approach a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 200 nmol/L.

Keeping your 25(OH)D near this target serum concentration also buys you a comfortable safety margin and reserve in the event of colds or flu that would easily burn through at 180 nmol/L.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2209 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 3:11pm
 
Thanks Batch.
Actually, I've had a head cold all week and still the beast behaved.
Not too bad at all.
Peter.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2210 - Feb 24th, 2015 at 4:04pm
 
Peter,

Thanks... That is great news...  Based on data from the online survey, the 50:50 tipping point is close to a 25(OH)D serum concentration of 150 nmol/L, (60 ng/mL) so you're ahead of the game so to speak at 163 nmol/L.

Take care and thanks again for another important data point.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2211 - Feb 25th, 2015 at 1:13pm
 
Batch,
Yes I did feel that paresthesia but the CH pain ran up much faster than I could take. This morning I tried a modified version of the O2 inhalation therapy that I've personal messaged you (just now) and that seemed to be a much better abort for me.

Even though I've experienced two CH's today, one hardly a kip 1 and very short lived at around 3:00 AM (no O2 or Imitrex needed for that one) and another around 10:00 AM that I successfully aborted with O2, this has been a much better day than yesterday.

Gary
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2212 - Feb 25th, 2015 at 5:16pm
 
Gary,

Thanks for the update... and glad to hear you had a better day.

I should have added the following caveat to my suggested instructions... 

"If using this method of oxygen therapy hasn't slowed or halted the increase in CH pain after two complete 1-minute sequences, take the closest bailout abortive, i.e., imitrex SC injection or nasal spray...  and then return to the oxygen therapy..."

Before I started the anti-inflammatory regimen there were times when I felt a very nasty fast rising CH coming and I knew the pain wouldn't stop rising until it reached a KIP-9 or KIP-10 no matter what I did.  Imitrex and oxygen had no apparent effect. 

It's kind of like trying to "woe up" a runaway horse with the bit in his teeth...  No amount of tugging on the reins was going to stop the critter until it got tired...

It's the same thing with rogue CH hits...  There's no stopping the beast until it feels like it's made a meal out of the back of your eye and most of your brain on that side...

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When that happens, all you can do is resign yourself to some heavy sledding and hang on...  The only consolation is you know it will end... eventually.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2213 - Feb 26th, 2015 at 11:42pm
 
Batch,
Thanks for that advice and encouragement. Nice sculpture! Is that your rendition of the beast?
I once had a dream it was hunting me. It was an oversized hyena with four inch fangs and its "fur" was porcupine spines, it had claws like a lion's and it was hungry. Just as it eyed me, I escaped through a trap door to a lower level where it couldn't find me. At that moment I was awoken by a CH with a "bang" inside my head. I jumped up, ran downstairs and hit the O2 and got rid of it within minutes. Quite the dream becomes reality experience!

Here's an exciting update, I have now had 36 plus hours pain free, not even any shadows!
So, instead of taking it one day at a time, I'm taking it one hour at a time. Hopefully by tomorrow morning I can make it 48.

I've been taking that 2,000 mg vitamin C every two hours since yesterday as you suggested (maybe that helped?), how long do you recommend I keep that going? 
Gary
P.S. Historically, this many days along in previous cycles, a PF day never happened.
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« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2015 at 11:55pm by Glassman »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2214 - Feb 27th, 2015 at 8:34am
 
Gary,

Thanks for the update...   I like to hear good news like that.  It appears this regimen is starting to kick in.

The sculpture was done by one of my daughter's classmates at Temple.  As soon as I saw it I said to myself...  "There's the cluster beast" took out my camera and took several photos.

Regarding the vitamin C...  I'd stick with the present schedule until the cold symptoms are completely gone then drop back to 2000 mg/day.  Humans are unable to make vitamin C so a dose like this is very healthy...

If you want to turn the vitamin C into a heart insurance policy... add 2,000 mg/day L-Lysine.  That's essentially Linus Pauling's Therapy that keeps plaque from forming inside the arteries that supply blood to the heart.

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Pauling's therapy had a lot of critics... The funny part about that is Pauling had two more Nobel Prizes than any of his critics...  He also outlived most of them.

Of course if you go this route with vitamin C and L-Lysine...  you'll want to avoid sugar and in particular, high fructose corn syrup.  That crap is in everything...

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The only reason we keep a bag of sugar around here is to feed the hummers that live with us year round.  I even picked up a heated feeder to keep a warm supply of sugar water available during freezing temps.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2015 at 11:22am by Batch »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2215 - Feb 27th, 2015 at 9:02am
 
Batch, and Everyone,
So, all in all, I made it 41 hours before getting hit with a less than kip 1 at 5:00 AM which lasted only 10 mins. I didn't even bother to get out of bed.
At 7:45 I got a second hit, which was very slow to build, but after 15 mins. got annoying enough that I resorted to O2 and it was gone 10 mins. later.
Gary
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2216 - Feb 28th, 2015 at 2:21am
 
Gary,

Good start... Given the track record for this regimen so far... I'd say the odds are well in your favor you'll continue to improve with longer periods PF...  Hang in there and thanks for the update.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2217 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 11:58am
 
Batch and Everyone,
Today marks 72 hours PF!
No shadows either.
Beginning yesterday, I've tapered down to 10,000 IU D3.
Batch, how do I go about ordering a self test for 25(OH)D3?

Yesterday makes 29 days for this cycle.
During that time I had 10 headache days for a total of 17 CH.
I needed Imitrex only 3 times.
I needed O2 6 times.
This was the most manageable and easy cycle I've ever had in my life since I first got them at 16 years old. Many of the CH's were very mild to the point of my wondering if I was getting hit with a CH. I only had one or two at the kip 8-9 range.

Four years ago during my last cycle at 29 days:
I had 56 CH's most of those I was aborting with O2 and then would be hit an hour later with another. I'd do this over again and agin until I resorted to Imitrex for a more lasting relief.
I went through 14 Imitrex, some days requiring 2 doses.
At day 23 I resorted to a 5 day Prednisone taper which worked but at the end of that continued to get hit for several days.
This was a better cycle than most since I was using O2 for the first time. But the pain was still brutal. Almost every CH during this cycle was at the kip 8-9 range.

Quite a difference...
Hope this is encouraging for others!
Gary
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« Last Edit: Mar 2nd, 2015 at 1:43pm by Glassman »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2218 - Mar 2nd, 2015 at 3:15pm
 
Gary,

I could tell a similar story, except that I went chronic about 2 years age, so it was every single day without fail.

7 weeks now on the D3 and I'm a different person. Even played my first round of golf yesterday in 2 years and not a twinge.   (Golf was rubbish, of course, but who cares).

Still getting mild shadows, but what a difference.

All thanks to Batch.

Keep well everyone.

Peter.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2219 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 12:34am
 
Peter510 wrote on Mar 2nd, 2015 at 3:15pm:
7 weeks now on the D3 and I'm a different person. Even played my first round of golf yesterday in 2 years and not a twinge.   (Golf was rubbish, of course, but who cares).


Whilst D3 can help with many things, I think that it isn't up to helping with golf.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2220 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 1:58am
 
Mike,

Tragic, but true!

Peter.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2221 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 9:37am
 
Thanks Peter!
I found golf way too frustrating, so I took up skiing... no need to keep score!  Grin
Gary
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2222 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 9:38am
 
Hmmm...  I'm told a drop or two of vitamin D3 on your driver or putter might produce a better score...     Roll Eyes

Sorry...  I couldn't resist...

Peter, Gary,  Great updates... Now that you've taken control of this disorder the next steps are getting tested for 25(OH)D and tuning the regimen by varying the ratios.  If your 25(OH)D is up around 80 ng/mL, (200 nmol/L), start by changing the calcium:magnesium ratio.

The vitamin D Council has a home test kit for $50 USD at the following link:

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Grassroots Health offers a similar 25(OH)D3 home test kit for $65 USD at the following link.  I've sent their test kits to CH'ers in Canada and they claim no problem shipping them overseas.

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Take care and please keep us posted...

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2223 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 12:31pm
 
Vit D test kit - ordered!
Gary
P.S. Still PF!
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« Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2015 at 12:32pm by Glassman »  

Maine Coon Cat Crazy
 
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Peter510
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Don't give out... But
don't give in.


Posts: 966
Wexford. Ireland
Gender: male
Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #2224 - Mar 3rd, 2015 at 2:43pm
 
Hi,

I got mine tested less than 2 weeks ago and was 163 nmol/L, so going in the right direction ( from 33nmol/L 2 weeks before that).

Will get it done again in 2 weeks time.

Keep well all.

Peter.
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You don't stop laughing because you grow old....You grow old because you stop laughing.
 
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