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Vitamin D (Read 11716 times)
Hoppy
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Vitamin D
May 14th, 2015 at 10:45am  


Vitamin D　

Good for our bones and we're learning,our brains. VitaminD is an essential nutrient.

But when you live in one of the world's best climates, the sun provides plenty of Vitamin D for most of us. "About 80% of Australians actually have adequate levels of vitamin D."

"Despite this sunny climate, millions of Australians, around 1 in 5 of us, take vitamin d supplements. Now, for the first time, researchers have discovered that could be doing more harm than good."

"Unlike some of the other vitamins, you can accumulate vitamin d in your system and that may have detrimental effects." Professor John Mamo from Curtin University led a three year project which found that too much Vitamin D can be really bad for your brain. "It could have risks for certain diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, multiple sclerosis, it may contribute to Parkinson's disease amongst other disorders but it may also have influences in terms of your behaviour and your ability to function in ordinary living such as memory performance."

Australian Medical Association chief, Doctor Michael Gannon, says five to ten minutes of sun exposure a day, is enough Vitamin D for most people. "It doesn't make sense that we could have such a high level of deficiency against a vitamin that's derived from exposure to the sun in a country like Australia." The best advice is to see your GP for a blood test. Supplements are fine, IF your vitamin D levels are inadequate. "It's not something that I would encourage people to just go and grab over the counter at the chemist; it has no value in the absence of a defined deficiency."

John Mamo says "If your levels are normal then there's no reason to be taking a supplementary vitamin d and I wouldn't recommend it." For researchers, the next step is to improve the health of our brains, once the damage has been done. "Our laboratory is also very keen and looking at ways of restoring integrity of these vessels so that we can slow progression of certain diseases or reduce risk for certain diseases and hopefully improve ordinary daily performance such as memory."
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« Last Edit: May 17th, 2015 at 11:31am by Hoppy »  
 
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Batch
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #1 - May 14th, 2015 at 12:24pm  
My thoughts...  Dumb as Owl poop!  No facts, no peer review... Junk Science! 

Likely funded by Big Pharma who is suffering explosive anal leakage over the fact that vitamin D3 is threatening their multi-billion dollar a year profits from selling toxic pharmaceuticals that don't really work and cause more harm than good...  or the result of a stupid TV exec looking for two minutes of fame...

See the following:

Higher Vitamin D Dietary Intake Is Associated With Lower Risk of Alzheimer’s Disease: A 7-Year Follow-up

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See also:

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I'm surprised you even posted something like this...

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: May 14th, 2015 at 12:30pm by Batch »  
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #2 - May 14th, 2015 at 1:04pm  
Not sure how much big pharma make out of CH but the study appears solid

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Batch
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #3 - May 16th, 2015 at 1:48am  
Lancashire Lad,

Thanks for the link to the actual study...

Here are the conclusions from that study...

"The findings from this study reiterate the substantial limitations when considering putative associations of between serum vitamin D, calcium and parathyroid hormone with physiological, pathological or cognitive sequelae. A recent meta-analysis that concluded vitamin D deficiency is associated with a substantially increased risk of all-cause dementia and Alzheimer disease, did not take into consideration an endocrine axis of effects [17]. This study suggests that provision of exogenous vitamin D at levels that suppress PTH secretion and increase iCa concentration compromise the permeability of cerebral capillary vessels but do not promote neurovascular inflammation per se. Potential synergistic effects of vitamin D in heightened inflammatory states should be investigated to further support the putative efficacy of vitamin D supplementation."

Hmmm... Having read the entire report several times...  I found it a very complex, convoluted and contorted study report with a number of stated limitations that make it impossible to support the conclusion in Hoppy's initial post from a TV segment claiming... "it [vitamin D3] can cause Alzheimer's disease, MS, Parkinson's disease in humans with prolonged use..."

In simple terms, during this study, they killed a lot of mice and rats after surgically removing some of their parathyroids... but could not, and would not, commit to a causal relationship between long term use of vitamin D3 and "physiological, pathological or cognitive sequelae." 

One conclusion was clear in the abstract...  "The effects of exogenous vitamin D supplementation on capillary function and in the context of prevention of vascular neurodegenerative conditions should be considered in the context of synergistic effects with calcium modulating hormones." 

No causal relationship claimed or directly inferred there...  only a suggestion that further studies of vascular neurodegenerative conditions use their methodology...

Accordingly, I'll stick with my last response option to Hoppy's post that the TV segment was "the result of a stupid TV exec looking for two minutes of fame..."

Some additional observations:

The term "however" appears 50 times in the text of this report...

The study conclusion further acknowledges substantial limitations in considering "putative" associations between serum vitamin D, calcium and parathyroid hormone with physiological, pathological or cognitive "sequelae."

This is a curious choice of wording as the term "putative" = in medical context, conveys commonly accepted or supposed, and also, assumed to exist or to have existed.  And "sequelae" in medical context refers to a pathological condition resulting from a disease, injury, therapy, or other trauma. 

So in effect, the authors are hinting in an indirect manor, that associations are possible between serum vitamin D, calcium and parathyroid hormone with physiological, pathological or cognitive disorders... but they won't say for sure...

That's weasel wording at best. In other words, creating an impression that a specific and/or meaningful statement has been made, when only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated.

The actual condition cited by the authors that resulted in compromised permeability of cerebral capillary vessels, was "exogenous [supplemental] vitamin D at levels that suppress PTH secretion and increase iCa [ionized calcium] concentration"

This is also very curious on a couple counts...  They never equated mouse, rat and human serum concentrations of 25(OH)D.  Second... under normal calcium homeostasis, a depressed level of PTH and elevated level of 25(OH)D results in a reduced serum concentration of 1,25(OH)2D3 and that results in lower serum concentrations of calcium (total or ionized).  That makes their finding based on an abnormal condition...  Very strange...

As usual, this study failed to include the co-nutrients recommended during vitamin D3 therapy and it's based on mice and rats not humans.

Finally, there are several studies (statistical retrospective meta-analyses) listed on the same NIH PMC page as this study, that all concluded a vitamin D3 deficiency results in a higher relative risk of neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimers and dementia. 

Moreover, as of August 2014, there are no less than 16 interventional clinical trials underway involving treatment and prevention of Alzheimers and loss of cognition with vitamin D3...

So the Fat Lady has yet to sing...

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: May 16th, 2015 at 1:49am by Batch »  
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AussieBrian
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #4 - May 16th, 2015 at 3:02am  
Does this mean it was wrong for Hoppy to bring this study to our attention, and ask for other people's thoughts?
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lancashire Lad
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #5 - May 16th, 2015 at 6:02am  
Hello again Batch

I think you are still missing the point, this study is yet another (in a long list) of red flags re the elevated, long term use of D3.

Vitamin / Hormone D is an extremely potent drug, it is also essential for human (and other forms) of life.

Not enough is harmful, just right is just right and too much is? What safe?

OK so you say; what's too much? I don't know, you don't know and the experts can't agree about the lower end of too much.

"Too much" in my guess, differs from person to person as does too little and just enough.

I was quite happy to take a potent drug with dangerous side effects to shift the extreme levels of head pain, it was my choice, I was informed.

If D3 with a cocktail of other vits reduces / frees CH sufferers agony then that has to be welcomed but if there are concerns of serious side effects (which there undoubtedly are) then it should be an informed choice.

Ranting at anybody who suggests that elevated, long term use of D may have undesirable consequences, labelling the conscientious Dr's and Scientists who perform the research (who don't come to your conclusions) as quacks, charlatans and Big Pharma stooges puts you in a very poor light.
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Batch
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #6 - May 16th, 2015 at 9:58am  
Another in a long list... of red herrings...

Do yourself a favor and go over to vitamin D Wiki at the following link: 

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There are over 50 RCTs blowing gaping holes in your argument...

Or you could go over to Grassroots Health at the following link...

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I haven't see any articles from the physicians on their list sounding like chicken little over long term use of vitamin D3...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: May 16th, 2015 at 10:21am by Batch »  
You love lots of things if you live around them. But there isn't any woman and there isn't any horse, that’s as lovely as a great airplane. If it's a beautiful fighter, your heart will be ever there
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #7 - May 16th, 2015 at 10:35am  
Why do you think it is perfectly safe to dump a whole pile of D3 and other stuff into such a complex,delicate and precision machine that man has so little knowledge of, at levels of D3 arbitrarily set by Batch and expect there to be no bad consequences?



{Put into Google "Pain Processors"

About 4 entries down (in my browser - Firefox)

The Oxford Handbook of Philosophy and Neuroscience - Google Books Result
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sors&source=bl&ots=9rS0sU8mtk&sig=tvHp4bG0y6LOlINTLixkDkJQw9M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cB5X
VZCeMpLB7AaLyYLwAw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAw

Should open page 182, use arrows < > to go to 181, to go to start Chap 2 "Our Pain Processing and Pain Inhibiting Systems"}



Other parts of the book (that are available in this preview) are also a very good read.

As a child I would take broken watches apart hoping to mend them, I never got them put back together again. Today if I wanted a mechanical watch repaired I would take it to an qualified watch repairer.

Unfortunately we can't always take our broken heads to an "expert" because there are none for CH. No one who can say this is what's wrong, this will mend it! Experts disagree about broken heads, so many wasted years finding relief.

And when the relief is found; is it safe? Well if you get it from your Doc it has gone through clinical trials and if in prescription drug form you will get a sheet of paper telling you all the things that might go wrong if you take the drug (to cover their a***'s).

So what's so wrong with D3 if it does cause problems, other drugs can? Nothing! The problem is if you are told by Batch that it is perfectly safe when he hasn't got a clue (evidence) if it is or not. The evidence form other sources is that it is not safe in certain situations (medical conditions, drug interactions and level / duration of use).

Clinical Trials are the way forward, trashing their conclusions, with no evidence to support the rebuttal, is not the way forward.

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dauber
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #8 - May 16th, 2015 at 1:23pm  
Thanks hoppy for yet another post providing us with some of the best medicine. Please read batch's post "123 days pain free and I think I know why" from the begining . or you could just change the caption under your picture to "what, me worry?"
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AussieBrian
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #9 - May 16th, 2015 at 11:19pm  
Hoppy wrote on May 16th, 2015 at 1:06pm:
...Australian Medical Association chief, Doctor Michael Gannon, says... "The best advice is to see your GP for a blood test. Supplements are fine, IF your vitamin D levels are inadequate.

"It's not something that I would encourage people to just go and grab over the counter at the chemist; it has no value in the absence of a defined deficiency."

John Mamo says "If your levels are normal then there's no reason to be taking a supplementary vitamin d and I wouldn't recommend it."

　

Excellent advice and a timely reminder on the importance of blood tests to ensure we're getting what we need and not overdoing a good thing.

Thanks for posting it, Hoppy.
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Batch
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #10 - May 17th, 2015 at 1:41am  
Australian Health Survey: Biomedical Results for Nutrients, 2011-12

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An interesting study by the Australian Government...

"In winter, rates of Vitamin D deficiency were particularly high for those living in the south eastern states of Australia, such as Victoria and ACT, where nearly one in every two people (49%) were Vitamin D deficient in winter compared with only 16% and 13% respectively in summer. By comparison, Vitamin D deficiency remained relatively low in winter for those in Queensland and the Northern Territory."
 
Vitamin D deficiency is defined as serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentrations ≤20 ng/mL (50 nmol/L).

A similar 2011 survey in the US found the overall prevalence rate of vitamin D deficiency was 41.6%, with the highest rate seen in blacks (82.1%), followed by Hispanics (69.2%).

Data from the online survey of CH'ers taking the anti-inflammatory regimen indicates the average 25(OH)D serum concentration before starting this regimen was 24.1 ng/mL, SD 8.7, Min 8, Max 47.  36% were classified as vitamin D3 deficient <20 ng/mL, and 41% were classified as vitamin D3 insufficient 20 to ≤30 ng/mL.

The average 25(OH)D serum concentration among CH'ers experiencing a favorable or pain free response was 80.9 ng/mL, (202 nmol/L). 

The 25(OH)D serum concentration range that supports non-skeletal health benefits of vitamin D3 is 100 to 150 nmol/L (40 to 60 ng/mL) according to the vitamin D3 experts at Grassroots Health...

Again... CH'ers are not normal... so we do need, on average, a 25(OH)D serum concentration range of 60 to 110 ng/mL in order to stay pain free...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #11 - May 17th, 2015 at 6:27am  
I'll throw my 2 cents worth in here .....
It has been noticed by myself and others in the UK that those on the D3 regime do seem to be incredibly short tempered particularly when it is in relationship to the regime .......any thoughts?
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plenty of time to sleep now me headaches aint too bad:)
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blacklab
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #12 - May 17th, 2015 at 7:46am  
Here we go again !
Lancashire lad has all the medical answers, all the facts that are real at his disposal !
same posts as before, same ranting, same blah blah blah
"how can someone possibly know more than me !
If its a proper study, it has to be true !
remember the fish oil study that said it was now a proven fact it caused prostate cancer ???????
ya have to believe that, it was a proper study !
done by the drug company that produces anti cholestrial drugs    OOOOH 
I asked u that once before when you were on another anti anti VIT D3 batch rant Lancashire ? you didn't reply ??
answer, it was a study that was published, then fully discredited a few months later,    any comment ????
Batch,  he obviously has a bone he wants to chew, no amount of other studies, research or debate will convince this clown otherwise.
your in his sights,  read his last rant !
Zany, I certainly don't mind debate, discussion, and facts being submitted, but its probably the same as "busting"  those that are anti  drugs, will never accept the good they do, its all about doing their best to discredit any new development in medical advancement !  If a drug company never O.K it, it cant be the truth. ( again, fish oil study)
THEY FRIGGEN LIE< TO PROMOTE THEIR DRUGS
the only time I get " incredibly short tempered" is when someone makes it their mission to discredit someone that has put great time and effort in helping others ! completely dismissing any thing that isn't black and white, that has to be explained and proven and have 50 years of studies before it can be accepted,   I call it a fear of the unknown, some call that in it self a disease,   probably just arrogance !
Funny though that its always those that have noticed such behaviour zany, or decide to make it there total mission to discredit batch and the regime,   ARENT EVEN ON IT !!
life to short, build a bridge and walk on over........

kindest regards
colin
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #13 - May 17th, 2015 at 8:06am  
Thank you blacklab, if I was looking for a Recruitment Sergeant to raise awareness of the possible dangers of Batch's Regimen, you would be a strong contender.

A Regimen's supporter's antagonistic, fervent zeal coupled a complete disinterest in facts.

If you manage to turn one person, today, to question the "regimen" and look to getting their D levels into the zone recommended by Batch's "experts", you may just have saved someone,s life today; not to mention the mode of death: heart failure, stroke, Alzheimers, MS, Parkinson's and so on. Or do you know something that we don't know and actually elevated D for long periods has no possibility of contributing to any of these dismal fates?

I've stated more than once, that I don't know the answers, neither does Batch or you, so until you do, getting on your soap box and preaching about something you have no idea about is going to put people off. And that can only be a good thing!

PS I'd check out the >80% thing there may be a statistical aberration going on there (placebo colliding with active ingredient effect)
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blacklab
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #14 - May 17th, 2015 at 8:24am  
here you go again, listen to yourself !
We all go on the regime and get regular blood tests
Its not for everyone
yes, no one knows all the answers
but you now claim I'll die of heart failure, Alzheimers, ms parkinsons etc etc ! WHAT  are you friggen serious  !
now you question the success rate ? which is taken from the actual participants ??
Lancashire, you that needs to wake up to yourself !
you haven't even read the hole regime 123 days have you ?
you didn't even know that batch specifies blood tests, I get mine done every three months !
Im not preaching at all about my pain free state ! and its nor for every one !
Im just stating that YOU are the one with the complete biased attitude towards it.
Would you like to answer the question about last years fish oil study now ?   of course you wont !
I'm also very defensive of the effort batch puts in to this hole regime, He's someone unlike you that gets off his arse and tries to make a difference !
And I bet that your probably using one of his masks designed and tested to make O2 more effective for cluster sufferers  !!   what have you ever done !
you my friend ARE a xxxxxxxxx
Put your energy into actually doing something positive
you have offered up no facts, no supporting data and have blatantly embalashed the truth and personally tried to discredit someone trying to make a difference
And simply disagree with you and your tirade goes on.
good luck with everything Lancashire lad,
take a good long look at yourself

colin
PS  Im pain free, have normal cholestrial and my calcium is in the normal range !!!
How are you doing   
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #15 - May 17th, 2015 at 8:33am  
OK blacklab

You overstep the mark often but you won't get away with this.

Apologise for calling me a liar and retract the statement or I will ask for you to be removed from the forum
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #16 - May 17th, 2015 at 8:53am  
Lancashire,

Hello again.

On March 14th you said that you were being assessed for a diagnosis. What was the outcome?

Peter.
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blacklab
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #17 - May 17th, 2015 at 8:53am  
I will certainly not apologise !
If I am removed from this forum, so be it
You have basically implied batch doesn't tell the truth ? questioning his credibility ?
And that of all other professionals conducting or indeed have conducted studies or trials into Vit D3.
And you yourself have hypothesised the out come of having elevated Vit D3 levels, without any documented evidence.
To date, I cant recall a single death from intoxication of Vit D3,  could you please enlighten us ?

The word liar was edited by myself at the request of D.J
The implied statement remains
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #18 - May 17th, 2015 at 9:09am  
1) I have never called Batch a liar, a fact that I hope he will attest to. But that has nothing to do with me demanding an apology from you.

2) I have never deleted or edited anything I have put on this forum.

3) Asking for verification of the success rate of the Regimen, which by-the -way I did not do, is not tantamount to calling someone a liar.

I will report your posts to the admin and let them deal with the situation as DJ sees fit.
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #19 - May 17th, 2015 at 9:25am  
Hello Peter 510

Wondered how long it would take for you to pop up.

Thank you for asking; I appear to have a mixed / multi HA syndrome (both primary and secondary) of which CH became an element. Overmedication screwed my Pain Processors.

Now off meds altogether until different elements can be properly identified and dealt with, pretty tough at the moment but I can see improvements.
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blacklab
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Re: Vitamin D3 warning.
Reply #20 - May 17th, 2015 at 9:36am  
lancashire Lad wrote on May 17th, 2015 at 9:09am:
1) I have never called Batch a liar, a fact that I hope he will attest to. But that has nothing to do with me demanding an apology from you.

2) I have never deleted or edited anything I have put on this forum.

3) Asking for verification of the success rate of the Regimen, which by-the -way I did not do, is not tantamount to calling someone a liar.

I will report your posts to the admin and let them deal with the situation as DJ sees fit.


you do that Lancashire, I can see your starting to get sooky on me !
oh and you will definitely not be getting an apology from me.
your behaviour and attitude and personal digs are nothing short of disgusting !  same as the last thread.
all the best
colin
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Re: Vitamin D
Reply #21 - May 17th, 2015 at 12:44pm  
Everyone has the right to "question" the credibility of any statements made in this community, no matter who the statements were made by.

However, I will highlight the Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register, especially this statement:

Debate is welcome (and encouraged), but attack ideas and opinions; not personalities.

Both sides of this argument have made their points.  Time to let the people interested in this treatment weigh the supporting documentation and decide for themselves.

DJ
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I NEVER could have imagined! (April 11th, 1998 - present).  Adversity does not build character... it reveals it.
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Re: Vitamin D
Reply #22 - May 17th, 2015 at 12:54pm  
Wise words DJ, thank you and sorry it got to this

Peter
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Re: Vitamin D
Reply #23 - May 17th, 2015 at 1:09pm  
Lancashire,
Sorry to hear that. Multi HA syndrome must be very difficult to deal with.
I hope you find solutions soon.
Peter.
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Re: Vitamin D
Reply #24 - May 17th, 2015 at 1:33pm  
Thanks Peter

Surprisingly easy once you've been to 10+

I will post some of the things that are helping on another occasion.

Peter
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