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notseinfeld
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They're just here to work
« on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:03pm »
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Peel the arms of your favorite lib from the tree and see what the response is to this:  
 
(Most checked for veracity with snopes)
 
 
From the L.A. Times  
 
 
1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes.  This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.  
 
2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.  
 
3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.  
 
4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.  
 
5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.  
 
6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages.  
 
7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.  
 
8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal.  
 
9. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish speaking.  
 
10. In L.A. County 5.1 million people speak English.  
3.9 million speak Spanish.  
(There are 10.2 million people in L.A. County).  
 
(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)  
 
 
Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops,  
but 29% are on welfare.  
 
Over 70% of the United States' annual population growth  
(and over 90% of California , Florida , and New York )  
results from immigration.  
 
The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was,  
(after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/ year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ].  The lifetime  
fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average  
adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number.  
 
29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.  
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #1 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:15pm »
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Sorry, its another 'whip up the hysteria' hoax.  Try checking with the L.A. Times, the alleged source of this material.  
 
http://opinion.latimes.com/immigration/2006/05/according_to_th.html
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #2 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:24pm »
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Gee, Flo........you always say my links are bull-shit cause they dont say what you think.........looks like this is the same, Bro Grin
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #3 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:29pm »
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it's a shame because we really need to have this debate in the open now and we really need accurate facts.
 
It seems BOTH sides are being deceptive and we're ALL going to lose if we don't straighten it out soon.
 
just start with the first one...
even if there ARE 15% of Los Angelesians working for cash, it's not good; they get public services and they're NOT paying taxes and the rest of us ARE and we're covering THEIR share.
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Jonny
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #4 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:35pm »
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Ill agree, Vig.....its a start
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #5 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:39pm »
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on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:24pm, Jonny wrote:
Gee, Flo........you always say my links are bull-shit cause they dont say what you think.........looks like this is the same, Bro Grin

 
Oh, so the fact that the claims in NotSeinfeld's post are fabricated and falsely attributed aren't the issue - you think the issue is me being mean and unfair?  
 
Its a chump chain letter.  The claims don't stand up to scrutiny. If you want a real dialogue on an issue, maybe try starting from a position of honesty?  
 
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #6 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:42pm »
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on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:39pm, floridian wrote:
maybe try starting from a position of honesty?  

 
Ok....hows this?
 
on Dec 27th, 2006, 10:29pm, vig wrote:

just start with the first one...
even if there ARE 15% of Los Angelesians working for cash, it's not good; they get public services and they're NOT paying taxes and the rest of us ARE and we're covering THEIR share.

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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #7 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:55pm »
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As I have stated before on several occasions, I recognize that there are problems related to illegal immigration.  But blowing things out of proportion and using that as a scapegoat doesnt help anyone. The only way to solve this problem is on the demand side - as long as Americans continue to fund illegal jobs, there will be a bountiful supply of people sneaking in from somewhere to take those jobs.  
 
Quote:
On March 30, (2004) Congress was told that 78 percent of known tax cheats in investment partnerships are not even asked to pay because there are not enough tax collectors to go after them. Congress and the Bush administration rejected the request by the IRS Oversight Board, a citizen panel Congress created, for extra money to pursue some of these tax cheats and stop about 1 percent of the $311 billion in estimated annual tax cheating.
 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/04/11/INGV560VO 41.DTL&type=printable

 
Lets not pretend all this stuff about the nation and the common good.  The oil companies get billions in subsidies on top of their record billions of profit.  The truly wealthy pay less in taxes while the middle class is squeezed, and the poor are blamed.
« Last Edit: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:57pm by floridian » IP Logged
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #8 on: Dec 27th, 2006, 10:58pm »
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Just to lighten the mood....
 
This morning, from a cave somewhere in Pakistan, Taliban Minister of Migration, Mohammed Omar, warned the United States that if military action against Iraq continues, Taliban authorities will cut off America's supply of convenience store managers. And if this action does not yield sufficient results, cab drivers will be next, followed by Dell and AOL customer service representatives and Motel 6 managers.
 
It's getting ugly.
 
  Did you see the Tom Brokaw special from the Vail/Aspen area?
If you came to the hill country of NC, VA, West VA, TN, etc and advertised that you would be willing to relocate young labor to Colorado, pay them $14.00 an hour to start with the possibility of being trained to operate heavy equipment at a higher rate of pay. Told them there was as much work as they wanted, I don't think the contractor in that segment would have any problem filling his jobs with hard working legal Americans!
 It's BS and a scam to make the rich richer at the expense of the legal population that intend to Stay in America and have a permanent positive impact on economy!
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #9 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 2:09am »
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I like the idea of the flat tax. Everyone would have to pay taxes then (unless you make less than the minium). Everyone including illegals, drug dealers or basically anyone that consumes and buys tangible items.  
 
Corporations would finally have to pay their share. The IRS as we know it would not be the same at all. Last I read, the tax code book was several thousand pages. If you call the IRS with certain questions, they don't even know the answer.
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #10 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 4:26am »
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Predjudice and ignorance have always used  the "facts" to fuel their fears....thus convincing themselves that they are neither predjudice nor ignorant.
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #11 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 7:30am »
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on Dec 28th, 2006, 2:09am, Ob1kanobee wrote:
I like the idea of the flat tax. Everyone would have to pay taxes then (unless you make less than the minium). Everyone including illegals, drug dealers or basically anyone that consumes and buys tangible items.  
 

 
 
I agree.  But everyone should pay the same amount, not the same rate.  When you go to a supermarket to buy food, that gallon of milk costs the same for everyone.  Why should government services be any different? Divide the amount the government spends by the number of people in the country, and send out the bills.  
 
Next year's budget is $2770 billion, divided by 300 million people, = $9233.  So a family of four gets a bill for $36,933, maybe round it up to $40,000 to help pay down the debt. That is as simple and fair as it gets.  Everyone pays their share. None of this 'sliding rate' nonsense.  Why should the rich have to pay more? Why should corporations pay any taxes - all they do is pass the cost on to the consumer.  Lets be simple, and fair.  
 
 
« Last Edit: Dec 28th, 2006, 7:34am by floridian » IP Logged
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #12 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 7:39am »
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I know Barb has mentioned tax evasion and crime have another huge source with not enough press about it read and our own Carl Levin in Washington has been investigating.
 
How offshore tax havens work:
 
The General Accounting Office report, commissioned by Senators Carl Levin (D-MI) and Byron Dorgan (D-ND) and released April 5, gave a clue to how. It's called "transfer pricing," or improperly shifting income to lower-tax countries.  
 
Firms set up offshore "subsidiaries" which, on their books, perform functions that let them cut onshore taxes. They may sell their own "logo" to the subsidiary and then pay a high price to "rent" it back, deducting "rent" as expense. They may move money to the subsidiary and "borrow" it back, deducting interest payments. If several of their subsidiaries are involved in a deal, the firms may grossly inflate profits assigned to those in offshore tax havens, which levy no or minimal taxes on "profits" claimed there.  
 
The U.S. firm may "trade" with an offshore "shell" it owns -- a phony company set up in a tax haven -- pretending it's buying goods or services at a high price or selling its product low, to create deductions. Because the tax haven keeps owners' names secret, the IRS won't know the company is "trading" with itself.  
 
 
 
His website and a few words he has to say:
 
http://www.senate.gov/~levin/newsroom/release.cfm?id=211288
 
For years now, offshore tax havens have damaged U.S. interests by facilitating crime, money laundering and tax evasion. An estimated $70 billion in U.S. tax revenue is lost each year due to assets hidden offshore - a figure so huge that if even half that amount were collected it would pay for a Medicare prescription drug program without raising anyone's taxes or cutting anyone's budget. Besides robbing U.S. taxpayers of this revenue, uncooperative offshore tax havens are an ongoing affront to honest taxpayers. U.S. citizens have one of the highest rates of voluntary payment of tax in the world today, because they are willing to pay their fair share to keep this country great and enjoy the benefits of a strong defense, safe food, clean water, good roads, and the other advantages this country offers. Tax evasion is a crime in this country. It is a serious crime because it undermines overall confidence in the tax system and it deals a terrible blow to the basic fairness that makes democracy work.  
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Dec 28th, 2006, 8:13am by Kevin_M » IP Logged
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #13 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 10:42am »
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Population estimates have soared to between 15 and 20 million illegal aliens in the country.  Since these numbers are estimated, the cost to federal, state and local governments, business and individuals are impossible to calculate.  Every service provided, crime committed, unpaid tax, unpaid bill, etc. of an illegal alien is made up for by taxpayers and consumers.  American taxpayers and consumers have become doormats in the rush to increase corporate profits through cheap labor and wholesale sell-out of our economy.    
 
Illegal aliens do not contribute more than they cost law abiding, taxpaying citizens and consumers.  The millions of illegal aliens in prison and illegally collecting welfare consume billions in taxpayer resources.  Conservative estimates are that two-thirds of illegal aliens work in an underground economy with no deductions for taxes or obligation to pay outstanding bills.  The remaining third have somehow managed to illegally obtain fraudulent documentation that makes it impossible to track their contribution or cost.  The fact is taxpaying citizens and consumers must fund education, healthcare, municipal services, housing, unpaid bills, crime, translation costs, etc., etc., etc., for illegal aliens moving freely around the country while forcing taxpaying citizens to reduce their standard of living to compete for jobs.  
 
Before you believe the prevalent pack of lies perpetuated by the illegal alien lobby that supports government-sanctioned criminal activity, ask yourself what they have to gain.  Our nation is $8.7 trillion in debt with a trade deficit nearing $1 Trillion.  Our government borrows $2 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat.  American taxpayers cannot afford heavy non-contributing immigration numbers when our economy is being bled to death by massive debt and diminishing job opportunities for taxpaying citizens, yet it continues unchecked.    
 
As long as American citizens don’t speak up…  You can count on corporations incorporating offshore to avoid paying U.S. taxes, devouring cheap labor and funding government sanctioned trade imbalances.  You can count on wealthy senators and congressmen accepting legalized bribes from corporate entities and foreign interests who keep our government in their back pockets.  You can count on increasing tax burdens and a declining standard of living in the name of corporate profits and a global economy.  After all this is the land of free milk and honey that the rest of the world should feast from freely.  
 
If you’re as sick of this nation-destroying as I am, demand that our leaders establish control over our borders and interior so that we have immigrants and visitors legally present in the country who pay all taxes and bills required of American citizens.  Demand that “Free Trade” be replaced by “Fair Trade” before our economy is brought into line with third world economies that benefit only a wealthy few.  These objectives are of vital importance to our national security and the future of the majority of American citizens.
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #14 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:05am »
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Do ya think Bush will pull a Reagan and grant sweeping amnesty?  That would:
 
1) Greatly decrease the number of illegals, who would then be legal.
2) Pull many of those new legals into the above-ground economy.
3) Win minority votes for the Republicans, and
4) Improve political contributions from the cheap-labor capitalists.  
 
The only consolation of being a lame-duck President is that you don't have to worry about what people think!  
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #15 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:13am »
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Floridian, the way i understood it is the more you spent, the more tax you would pay. You would have zero taxes taken out of your paycheck. No state, federal ect. taxes of any kind. So if a person that makes enough money to say buy a $35,000 bass boat would pay this flat tax on that boat. A person who could not afford to buy a boat like that (say a school teacher on a school teacher's salary) there is no way she can pay the same as a rich person.
 
In the U.S., the middle class will soon be no more, that is a fact, no if an buts about it. You will either have a lot or have a little. The gap is increasing between the two all the time.  
 
With the flat tax, it has been shown that the cost of goods would actualy come down. Every time things are made, they are taxed and taxed and taxed again, untill the consumer buys it, in which they are taxed again. With ertain components of the flat tax for instance, we inherintly for example pay thet in the price to buy a car. That inherant tax would be eliminated under the flat tax, so the price of the car would be less. The tax would be on the sales price.
 
So if you buy a $50,000 car or a $15,000 you pay the same rate. Bottom line, it is a much better sysytem than we have now, and it has been proven (on paper) that this method would pay down the debt. I might add that it doesn't help our debt as a country to be in Iraq either and every other damm place being peacekeepers all the frickn time, let alone al these soldiers getting injured and dying.
 
The U.S. thinks it can just come in and change the way certain people of foreign lands way of thinking that they have had for hundreds of years. You can't do it, you can't win that war. These people are as right as right in their mind as we are in ours.
 
Some of you might think this is nuts, but I personally put my trust in God and not in man and the weapons of war. The earth and mankind were created for time indefinate, and God is not going to allow it to be destroyed. Putting your faith in man is like the blind leading the blind, sooner or later they will both fall into the pit. I'm getting off topic here, so I will refrain.
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #16 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:29am »
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on Dec 28th, 2006, 7:30am, floridian wrote:

 
 
I agree.  But everyone should pay the same amount, not the same rate.  When you go to a supermarket to buy food, that gallon of milk costs the same for everyone.  Why should government services be any different? Divide the amount the government spends by the number of people in the country, and send out the bills.  
 
Next year's budget is $2770 billion, divided by 300 million people, = $9233.  So a family of four gets a bill for $36,933, maybe round it up to $40,000 to help pay down the debt. That is as simple and fair as it gets.  Everyone pays their share. None of this 'sliding rate' nonsense.  Why should the rich have to pay more? Why should corporations pay any taxes - all they do is pass the cost on to the consumer.  Lets be simple, and fair.  
 
 

 
  ROTFLMAO...........I'm movin to Flo's house..errr Estate
 
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #17 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:34am »
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All of the flat tax proposals I have seen make a distinction between earned income and investment income, and earned income is hit with a higher tax.  This hits the working person harder, and shifts more of the burden to them.  
 
A large portion of the population lives paycheck to paycheck, and they spend all of their income. So they would end up paying on all of what they make.  Those who are already well off can put more of their money into investments under the flat-tax proposals, and increase their share of the pie even more.
« Last Edit: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:36am by floridian » IP Logged
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #18 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:35am »
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Honey, have you seen my check book. I gotta pay my $40,000.00 tax bill again. laugh
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #19 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 11:57am »
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Who knows, probably. Do you think one day some of the people in this country are gonna get so fed up with those kind of shananigans, there is gonna be a Civil War, a coup or uprising of some sort? It has happened before and all the signs are there for it to happen again. Just "hang around the water cooler at work" (so to speak) and it is as plain as day to me.
 
I know though Polititions and big business will do whatever to fatten their wallets. So if it is good for them and the Lobbyist want it bad enough they get it. Our government is just as corrupt as any other, we just do it legally.
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #20 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 2:06pm »
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Thanks notseinfeld for 10 (out of about a trillion) good reasons not to live in California.  
 
The flat tax could work well if the politicians would allow it. A federal sales tax on everything except necessary things like food. You control the amount of taxes you pay. If you don't want to pay high taxes don't buy the Lexus, buy the Chevy. Don't buy a shirt at Macy's, go to K-Mart. Seems simple to me.
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #21 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 2:10pm »
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Is that fence up yet?? Grin
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #22 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 5:25pm »
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Conscript them.
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #23 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 6:29pm »
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The reason they can't pass a flat tax bill or a health care bill or any kind of bill that would atleast accomplish something significant is because THEY WOULD HAVE TO READ THE DARN THING! Most ALL the bills that get passed don't ever even get read by the majority.  
 
I don't know where this $40,000 tax bill (I don't care if it is $10,000) is just dandy with you Floridian? How is a school teacher, fireman, police officer, janitor, wallmart cashier, ect. gona pay that? You would have to make at least $120,000 a year to pay a $40,000 tax return! My best friend made around $260,000 last year (on the books) and he made me write out the $51,000 check to the IRS because he thought he was gonna have a heart attack.
 
under our current tax system I would love to have a $40,000 tax bill, I would of made some good money!
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Re: They're just here to work
« Reply #24 on: Dec 28th, 2006, 7:56pm »
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on Dec 28th, 2006, 7:30am, floridian wrote:

 
 
I agree.  But everyone should pay the same amount, not the same rate.  When you go to a supermarket to buy food, that gallon of milk costs the same for everyone.  Why should government services be any different? Divide the amount the government spends by the number of people in the country, and send out the bills.  
 
Next year's budget is $2770 billion, divided by 300 million people, = $9233.  So a family of four gets a bill for $36,933, maybe round it up to $40,000 to help pay down the debt. That is as simple and fair as it gets.  Everyone pays their share. None of this 'sliding rate' nonsense.  Why should the rich have to pay more? Why should corporations pay any taxes - all they do is pass the cost on to the consumer.  Lets be simple, and fair.  
 
 

 
Flo, that would not be a progressive tax, and it would hit the middle class hard while letting the rich pay even less in taxes.  Also, your post does not account for any corporate income tax.
 
Its funny how the right wing thinks that low revenue and high expenses is a good fiscal model.  You can see the selfishness shine through.  They want to live large, and just pass the credit card bill to their kids, which, btw, doubles every 7 years at 7% interest.  
 
Rather than raise taxes by 1 trillion now, they would rather raise taxes by 4 trillion in 14 years from now.  This is what is known as neo-conservative fiscal policy.
 
 
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