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Topic: Chinese Medicine (Read 2350 times) |
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Ueli
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Foreword for Nani: Do not read this post. It contains some long winded arguments, and therefore, it's not suitable for folks with such an open mind that most of the brains fell out. Keep your picking on me to the general board, and leave this board to people who can develop trains of thought that are longer than what can be written on a lapel button.
Floridian, I don't agree with your argumentation on evolution:
Quote:| Evolution can lead to intricately beautiful mechanisms, but it is blind. Of what evolutionary significance is the appendix, or vestigal toes? |
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Evolution is branching out and adapting to needs of a new niche in the environment. Quite a bit of evolutional history is repeated during development a foetus. As an example, in the early stages the human foetus has 5 slits on each side of the head, reminiscent of the gills of fishes. The first vertebrate animals had 5 digits on each extremity, for this reason or that, probably by pure chance. This number of fingers/toes has been retained by all vertebrate up to now. For some animals, like the horse, it was advantageous to walk/run on a single toe, so this one increased in size while the other 4 shriveled to insignificance. On one time during evolution the precursor of our appendix had some useful function too, the same as the coccyx. So, vestigal toes, appendix and coccyx are not a dead-end of evolution taking a wrong turn, but the remains of features no longer useful. It hurts like hell if you slip on ice and knock you coccyx. But the evolutionary pressure is not strong enough to eliminate this useless appendage completely (especially as there is hardly any ice in the African savanna). Same for vestigal toes and appendix, not enough evolutionary pressure.
Our nerve system is such a complex contraption that it can not be modelled by all the computers in the world together. Therefore, it's not surprising that it is not debugged completely. As an example, it can only identify one source of pain at a time, the nearest one to the brain (hence the advice 'to clench one's teeth' and not be a wimp). Our visual system, that serves us well for every day situations, can be fooled by craftily designed optical illusions. I put the Bubba effect in the same corner as optical illusions, something with just not enough pressure to warrant a special evolutionary effort.
Now, the system of meridians and chi is comparable to the complexity of our blood circulation system. And yet, there was no benefit from it until someone, after millions of years of development, discovered chi and found a way of its manipulation. The very nature of chi escapes me. It's akin to the 'soul', either you believe in it, if indoctrination could get a foothold, or you relegate it to the realm of the unenlightened dark ages.
Quote:| Does it disturb you that CH is treated with migraine medicines, blood pressure medicines, nerve blocks and ablations, anti-epilepsy medicines, atypical antipsychotic medicines and plain oxygen? |
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No. As we can't treat (yet) the cause of CH, we must rely on fighting the symptoms. We can try to break the feedback loop by constricting the vessels with Imitrex or oxygen; we prevent the vessels from expanding with verapamil. Anti-epilepsy and antipsychotic medicines try to limit the rapid fluctuations of the many neurotransmitters that get active during a cluster attack. But the different schools of acupuncture are more like the differences between Roman Catholics and Calvinists.
But that said, I don't want to deter anybody from trying acupuncture. I merely give a warning that they might waste time with an unproven method, suffering needless pain while delaying proven remedies.
PFNADs, Ueli 
(Nani, STFU, you're playing in a much inferior league)
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don
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For Ueli.
Then start a new thread. The author of this one in 15 for Christs sake.
Your highly intellectual dialogue with Floridian probably wont help him much.
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cray
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #27 on: Jan 4th, 2005, 7:43am » |
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Well said Don. If i were michael,s family reading those stats ireckon i,d go east also.
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Ueli
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For Don.
Thanks, good advice from the master of hijacking. 
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #29 on: Jan 4th, 2005, 11:38am » |
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Hmmm...didn't we get this thread back on track once before by pointing out the age of the poster? I think it's our job to write to the reader...and actually answer the questions posed. A simple..."I would" or "I wouldn't" with a brief explanation would suffice.
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don
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Quote:| Thanks, good advice from the master of hijacking |
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Yeah I'm pretty good at that but not from a 15 year old kid looking for help.
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Ueli
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STFU Nani and Don, you canting hypocrites!
But before you do, Don, teach me how look into the future, how to know that a poster is going to reveal his age a day later and what it will be.
All I did was to point out some inconsistencies in the original post and issue a warning against jumping on the "alternative" bandwagon.
Then came Nani who gave the thread a vicious twist. As she is obviously not able to follow an argument longer than two sentences, she resorted to insulting me, blaming me of corruption.
About 20 posts later, when the thread had long ago gone astray, I answered some of Floridian's question, something some dumbasses apparently couldn't follow.
Duh...
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don
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Your a real happy old fella arent you?
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #33 on: Jan 4th, 2005, 10:57pm » |
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Sending vibes and positive energy....
I think I'll light a candle and swing a crystal over it chanting for inner peace for you...
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Kevin_M
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #34 on: Jan 4th, 2005, 11:26pm » |
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on Dec 30th, 2004, 11:59am, MichaelEaston wrote:| and now Verapamil, except at a higher dose than before (I now take 480mg a day..the first time it was much lower) I believe this treatment has helped the most although it has barely helped at all. |
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Michael,
I've been through similar preventatives with the same result as you, none. Then... the verapil, 360mg then to 480mg, no significant difference. Ok, nothing to lose, 600mg verapamil. BINGO. Big difference, for the first time.
The last eight episodes of "other experiments" in eight years, with the O2 and trex always ready and used many multiple times daily each; I thought that is how it is always been and going to be
It could happen, there's that possibility out there. Last episode, I was ready to say verapamil didn't work for me when the nine month cycle ended on it's own, the whole time unrelenting. This cycle, it's different now, for the first time. This is just an example.
Kevin M
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| « Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2005, 11:35pm by Kevin_M » |
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Mr. Happy
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #35 on: Jan 4th, 2005, 11:27pm » |
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Asian Medicine, not Chinese Medicine, Asian Medicine. Get with the politically correct program, folks.
Nay vote here on accupuncture. Was referred to a "teacher" of the art. Three months, and $800 later, I was no better, even tho it was only supposed to take 4 weeks and $100.
My "Chi" problem was supposed to be located at C1-C2. The neurosurgeon whittled some bone out of the way on C4-C5, and did a nerve decompression on the elbow. Good to go.
Not to hard deciding who was right.
Costly lesson. Ain't discussing filthy chiro's,
RJ
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calebgg
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #36 on: Jan 5th, 2005, 8:08am » |
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I tried accupuncture in 1999 - it was for my second bout of CH. At that point, the doctor I was going to had never heard of CH. So, I thought "How about accupuncture" since he couldn't come up with any meds. I went. Since I had to schedule appointments, it obviously could not be of use during an attack. However, I do feel like the once weekly experiment was relaxing, and helped relieve stress. The headaches stopped coming everyday, and eventually ended. I do not know (or feel) that there was a direct connection. I feel like I simply happened to start the accupuncture at the time that my episode was winding down. That said, it was relaxing and I did enjoy it.
--calebgg
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Searcing for the true cluster buster
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iJun G4
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #37 on: Jan 7th, 2005, 11:27pm » |
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I spend less time here by virtue of Chinese Medicine (acupuncture & Chinese herbs) compared to many of the guys who hang around this site on a permanent basis.
It's the same for anyone who has success Chinese Medicine; there's not much reason to have to come back here to voice their opinion.
I always find it odd that acupuncture in particular is rejected--even by those who are influential in the CH community--despite the undeniable fact that it does work for at least some people.
Most people who try acupuncture and don't see total improvement within 24 hrs assume acupuncture doesn't work. Since when are Western doctors and treatments 100% effective? If we used *that* standard, there are certainly all sorts of doctors (both GP and the so-called HA specialists) who misdiagnose CH as wrong types of HA, and even with a correct CH diagnosis, they prescribe drugs that are either mostly or totally ineffective. Are all docs quacks because of this? Are all medications useless just because some don't work?
Can you say "over-generalization error"?
I use both Western and Chinese Medicine, btw. Imitrex and oxygen are fine for aborting. But it's clearly only the Chinese Medicine which manages to reduce the frequency and severity of the attacks within a cycle, and also manages to prolong the HA-free period between cycles. That's a fundamental improvement.
If Western medical knowledge is so great that the understanding of CH is superior to Chinese Medicine, then why the heck hasn't any drug company found a perfect, synthesized cure for CH already?
What about shroom therapy, which seems much more effective compared to synthesized drugs for preventative. Besides the fact that they happen to be illegal now, shroom therapy seems awfully similar to Chinese herbal medicine in methodology. Come to think of it, why are natural remedies so marginalized and kept illegal? Could it be because drug companies only want to sell what's made in the lab, and nothing natural could possibly be superior to a man-made drug with all of its ill side-effects?
Even the effectiveness of many Western drugs and treatments are only empirical test data of things that happened to work, and researchers can then make a best-guess at what the underlying mechanism could be.
Being an ancient form of medicine, Chinese Medicine doesn't pretend it can explain its effectiveness in modern scientific terms. But at least it is surprisingly consistent within its own terminology at a level which far surpasses the constant guessing game found in Western medicine. In the end--who cares, as long as it works!
Those of you out there who reject Chinese Medicine without really trying it or just happened to find an acupuncturist with insufficient knowledge or technique (never happens with docs, neuros, and pharmacists, right?) do not have the right to say universally that Chinese Medicine does not work for CH, because there are clearly people out there like me who have found this to be highly effective. You have to do your homework and find a good acupuncturist, just like finding a good neuro. You have to find the right words to communicate so the acunpuncturist can lead you to an effective treatment, just like with any doctor. But the simplistic and closed-minded blanket negative statements about Chinese Medicine does a huge, huge disservice to the community of CH sufferers who might otherwise likely find a highly effective treatment for themselves.
Anyway, I'm logging out after this; my cycles are cake compared to what they were before I started acupuncture. I don't have much need to hang around here any more. Seems obvious to me that acupuncture and shrooms are just about the only ways to fundamentally improve the CH condition, to the point where the word "cure" might even be applicable in the long-run. Acupuncture is no magic mushroom, but it is legal. You owe it to yourself to find a way to make acupuncture work for you. It's no harder than finding a good neuro.
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Clusterheads are warriors who fight unbearable pain every day to stay alive.
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BobG
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #38 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 1:21am » |
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on Jan 7th, 2005, 11:27pm, iJun G4 wrote:I spend less time here by virtue of Chinese Medicine (acupuncture & Chinese herbs) compared to many of the guys who hang around this site on a permanent basis.
Hang around? What the fuck do you mean by that? It sounds as if you inferring that the "guys" are just a bunch of losers with nothing better to do. The ones that are here regularly are here for a reason. A big reason. To help others that are suffering. They are not here to spout off about some fuckin’ Chinaman sticking needles in them and then claiming it will cure clusters.
It's the same for anyone who has success Chinese Medicine; there's not much reason to have to come back here to voice their opinion.
If there is no reason to come here and voice an opinion then why the fuck are you here running your big mouth?
If Western medical knowledge is so great that the understanding of CH is superior to Chinese Medicine, then why the heck hasn't any drug company found a perfect, synthesized cure for CH already? One word, money.
It's the way the capitalist system works, dumb ass. Do the Chinese miracle workers give away their services for free?
Anyway, I'm logging out after this; I don't have much need to hang around here any more.
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And we don't have any need for you to hang around here any more.
Now please do as you said you would.........and LOG OUT! as$hole.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2005, 1:23am by BobG » |
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Stay stressed. Never relax. Never sleep. Ever.
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don
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Quote:| Anyway, I'm logging out after this; my cycles are cake compared to what they were before I started acupuncture. |
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Didn't know sinus headaches came in cyles. HMMM.
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Kevin_M
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #40 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 10:57pm » |
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on Jan 7th, 2005, 11:27pm, iJun G4 wrote:It's the same for anyone who has success Chinese Medicine;
I always find it odd that acupuncture in particular is rejected--
--despite the undeniable fact that it does work for at least some people. |
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I was looking for some facts with statistics in your post concerning this, but they seem to be not here. So far, its seems to be just the same two or three people making testaments, or perhaps simply plying their practice.
Quote:| even with a correct CH diagnosis, they prescribe drugs that are either mostly or totally ineffective. |
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Let me explain this gem with your own words
Quote:| Can you say "over-generalization error"? |
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Quote:| I use both Western and Chinese Medicine, btw. Imitrex and oxygen are fine for aborting. |
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I see. So picking and choosing what works from Western medicine is ok when the going gets rough. And I'm sure it was your acupunturist who introduced you to oxygen too, huh?
Quote:| Being an ancient form of medicine, Chinese Medicine doesn't pretend it can explain its effectiveness in modern scientific terms. But at least it is surprisingly consistent within its own terminology at a level which far surpasses the constant guessing game found in Western medicine. |
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I guess this explains the Imitrex use?
Quote:| the simplistic and closed-minded blanket negative statements about Chinese Medicine... |
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I see a close-minded blanket of negative statements about Western medicine.
Quote:| anyway, I'm logging out after this; |
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I see this statement is as true as the rest of your post. Still here. 
Kevin M
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| « Last Edit: Jan 9th, 2005, 8:49am by Kevin_M » |
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Ueli
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This iJun guy is so eloquent in defending this ancient "art", that he surely could explain (with the same good "reasons" and "evidence" ) why we still should stick to a flat earth view (at least 10000 years old) and discard modern devices, from the astrolabe to satellite navigation, because they rely on erroneous foundations.
Here's an old outpouring of the same guy, from a time when he hadn't yet tried acupuncture:
on Jun 17th, 2003, 10:49am, ijunG4 wrote:...First of all, acupuncture depends heavily on the correct knowledge of which "points" to use for a particular ailment. If the acupuncturist has the wrong knowledge or assumptions about treating CH, this will not work.
Second of all, even if the correct points are known to the acupuncturist, it does not mean that the needles will be successfully applied to the exact location needed. It's not like these points are marked with a big "X" on our bodies, and the points will vary from individual to individual. So the execution of the knowledge is important also.
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If you try acupuncture and it does not work the first time, don't write off acupuncture itself; perhaps let the acupuncturist know, or try a different acupuncturist. ... |
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In a nutshell: Acupuncture is a cut and try method. If you don't get the desired results within a few weeks try another needle artist, until one trial of the favored treatment coincides with the natural end of a CH cycle, then shout SUCCESS!
Sorry, but I rather rely in proven, western treatments. Otherwise I would be trying the 70th acupuncturist, and would have suffered in the 6 years I'm chronic about 6570 Kip#10's. Thanks to western medications the number of #10's in 6 years was ... drum roll ... zero.
BTW, did you notice that iJun's post is in the true spirit of a snake oil pedlar: Lots of hints and hidden accusations towards the opposition, without any proofs, as usual. Lots of unsubstantiated claims for his side, and of course making out of one (fortuitous) result a statistic of 100% success. 
BTW2, iJun, on 07/01/03, you wrote an equally frenetic praise on cranio sacral therapy. Did this give you the same good results as acupuncture?
Ueli
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vig
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #42 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 11:51am » |
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pretty good detective work there Ueli.
danke
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CC2004
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #43 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 4:34pm » |
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what about poor young Michael - does anyone know???
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Kevin_M
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #44 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 7:35pm » |
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[quote author=iJun G4 link=board=meds;num=1104271237;start=25#37 date=01/07/05 at 23:27:25]
deleted, misdirected
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| « Last Edit: Jan 10th, 2005, 11:44pm by Kevin_M » |
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #45 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 7:54pm » |
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No...Michael is the 15 year old who asked the original question. I have a feeling he won't be back. 
Would you come back if this was the response to your first question?
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don
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You dont suppose the egocentric intellectual jousting scared him off do you?
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #47 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 8:29pm » |
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You think?
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Kevin_M
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #48 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 11:42pm » |
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on Jan 10th, 2005, 7:54pm, nani wrote:No...Michael is the 15 year old who asked the original question. I have a feeling he won't be back.
Would you come back if this was the response to your first question? |
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thank you Nani, Don.
deleted misdirected post.
Kevin M
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| « Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2005, 12:08am by Kevin_M » |
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nani
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Re: Chinese Medicine
« Reply #49 on: Jan 10th, 2005, 11:58pm » |
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Thanks, kevin...but your post was not the problem with this thread.
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