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Peppermint
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LSA vs. other alternatives
« on: Jun 4th, 2005, 11:53pm »
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Could someone(s)  please explain (maybe Floridian?) what LSA is, what it is "usually"  used for (sounds like a recreational thing), how folks here stumbled across it and what the similarities and differences are between that and the other alternative treatments (kudzu & psilocibin).  
 
I have read through a bunch of threads but its pretty cryptic.  Just trying to get some info here, if you could help out - it would be much appreciated.  
 
If its a touchy subject, maybe you can point me in the right direction where I can read a comparison or something?  
 
Thanks, and  PFDANs,
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #1 on: Jun 5th, 2005, 1:02am »
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LSA is somewhat molecularly similar to LSD or shrooms, from what I understand. But you have to consume an insane amount of seeds for a psychadelic experience, or "trip". Yes it's abused recreationally, which is why it's having a tough time even being considered as a CH treatment. Most seeds will even say, "Not for human consumption" because of the abuse potential, and also if you don't scrape the fuzzy coating off the seeds, you will consume trace amounts of cyanide. Scrape them down good, chop the seeds up whole and strain through a tea bag or coffee filter into hot water for 10-15 minutes. Or you can just discard the shell entirely and eat the insides.
 
I would recommend about 5 or 6 but no more than that or you'll be feeling strange. Whether that is a good thing or bad thing depends on the person's mindset and emotional stability.
 
I took some seeds tonight for the first time, and it's nice and pleasant at a light dosage. I'm having shadows right now, but it's supposed to be long-lasting so we'll so what tomorrow brings.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #2 on: Jun 5th, 2005, 8:03am »
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Lysergic acid amide (LSA) is very closely related to LSD. It seems to be very similar to psilocybin, and very different from kudzu. In fact, LSA and kudzu could be called opposites since they have opposite actions where we (or me at least) think they work for CH, the 5-HT2a receptors.
 
It works a lot like psilocybin in terms of "cycle breaking" and psychological effects, again unlike kudzu. It seems to have a worse side effect profile than psilocybin, including some very serious circulation issues. Its main advantage over psilocybin is that it is legal.  
 
I'm not sure how it first came about to be used for CH. It was a common sense conclusion to try it for CH, since it is an indole ring hallucinogen, very similar to psilocybin and LSD. It's not really new here. It has been over a year since someone first posted here that LSA worked for CH. I'm not sure why it became popular recently...
 
It has no medical use (according to the US government) , so it is a recreational drug.
 
Jesse
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #3 on: Jun 5th, 2005, 11:54am »
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There are too few reports so far to recommend an ideal dosage or method of preparation for LSA from HBWR seeds. Some have cracked the seeds open and dug out the kernal inside (discarding the hulls), mashed that and soaked it for two hours or more in a little cold water, then consumed the water. Ingesting the hulls seems to increase the chances of digestive upset. From reports (not having tried either) I would not recommend morning glory seeds - they are too small to hull, and are known in hippie lore for their effects on the digestive system ("sure-fire puke" is the word)
 
Be careful out there! LSA is a powerful hallucinogen, as well as a vaso-contrictor as Jesse notes, and high doses can lead to some serious psychdelic experiences. How high a dose?  One report on Erowid recounts a heavy trip on about a dozen seeds. Some people report falling asleep (sometimes with intense visions/dreams) on high doses, others are stimulated.  All precautions for indole-ring hallucinogens apply to LSA (avoid if you suffer psychological problems, have a baby sitter, control set and setting). Seed : http://www.clusterbusters.com/faq.html#5
 
For medicinal purposes, Flash is recommending a conservative approach of starting off with a single HBWR seed for the first dose, then increasing that to 2 if there is no anti-cluster effect, then 3, etc...  
 
Remember, there is little info on this stuff. Anyone trying this is considered a "pioneer" or less euphemictially - a guinea pig.
 
There is some information on LSA and HBRW seeds at www.erowid.org
 
Good luck, plazticsoul, and let us know how things go.
 
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #4 on: Jun 5th, 2005, 11:55am »
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on Jun 5th, 2005, 8:03am, JJA wrote:
It seems to have a worse side effect profile than psilocybin, including some very serious circulation issues.

 
Nuff said, in my book.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #5 on: Jun 5th, 2005, 10:42pm »
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on Jun 5th, 2005, 11:54am, tommyD wrote:

Remember, there is little info on this stuff. Anyone trying this is considered a "pioneer" or less euphemictially - a guinea pig.
 
There is some information on LSA and HBRW seeds at www.erowid.org
 
-tommyD

 
Guinea pig - that leaves a sort of uneasiness..... can those "unknowns" be compared to other alternative treatment unknowns?  Thanks for the input everyone, but I have to ask, would you consider one to be safer than the other?  Maybe there's no answer for that yet either and I probably missed it.  Lots of info to wade through and the variables/unknowns I think are somewhat daunting.  
 
I realize that is not the main factor as being PF is first in your book is my guess (call me stupid!)---- but I am just wondering where this weighs in against other stuff.  For example, "prednisone" seems pretty evil in my book from some of the horrendous results I have seen people go through.... then again, what is the lesser of the two evils?    
 
I think I can take a good stab at that answer though I think that answer can be as unique as any individual.  
 
Its a lot to think about I think...  bulb confused2 Appreciate the link Tommy Wink  
 
That was some great input you guys.  Thanks.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #6 on: Jun 6th, 2005, 8:19am »
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on Jun 5th, 2005, 10:42pm, Peppermint wrote:
...would you consider one to be safer than the other?

In my opinion, among LSA, psilocybin and kudzu, psilocybin seems the safest from a physical health point of view. I say this because unlike the others, psilocybin has been commonly used for the past 40 years (but not for CH obviously). Any problems with this drug's safety would be known by now. In fact, it is known now that psilocybin can magnify or possibly cause psychotic symptoms in susceptible people.  
On the other hand, the legal standing of psilocybin makes it dangerous. If caught, chances are very good that you would just get a "slap on the wrist", but there is a possibility of serious jail time. (We need drug law reform)
Between LSA and kudzu, I could only guess which is safer, but I do believe either one could be used safely by a cautious, informed person.
 
Remember, this was all just my opinion.
 
Jesse
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #7 on: Jun 6th, 2005, 8:45am »
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Here is some good information that one of the Clusterbusters unearthed:
 
"They had Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds for sale. I told him about HBWR
seeds as a treatment for CH. He said if HBWR seeds work, Rivea
Corymbosa seeds should work even better. He said they have the same
psychoactive effect as HBWR seeds but none of the side effects of HBWR
seeds like nausea and gravity-pull. The Rivea Corymbosa seeds are much
smaller than HBWR seeds. They're only about 1/4th the size. There are
about 4 times as many of them (looked like more than 200) in a 7g
package as there are HBWR seeds in a 7g package. He said 20 Rivea
Corymbosa seeds is psychoactively equivalent to 5 HBWR seeds. Instead
of opening the seed, scraping out the inside and making tea; you just
crush the entire seeds and make tea. He also said don't dose more than
45 seeds at a time because 40-45 is like a full LSD dose. Prices are
in Canadian dollars, you can order on-line with major credit cards and
they ship worldwide. Here's the link to his website...
 
http://www.ethnogarden.com
 
Here's the Rivea Corymbosa seeds page...
 
http://www.ethnogarden.com/cart/index.pl/catid_77/proid_156
 
Could this be another "legal" weapon in our arsenal against the beast?
 
I didn't buy them, but I thought one of you experienced psychonauts
might want to do some further research on them. I found that they are
also known as "ololiuqui" and found these links...
 
http://www.erowid.org/plants/ololiuqui/ololiuqui.shtml
 
http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/references/
other/1971_hofmann_bulletin-narcotics.shtml#s110"
 
Thanks to BikerBob - hope you don't mind me quoting it again!
 
The main advantages would appear to be that the seeds are weaker thus making it easier to tailor the dose.  They also lack the poisonous outer husk, and ergotamine content of HBW.
 
So these might be worth careful consideration for anyone considering going down the LSA path.
 
Most medicine is dangerous if taken in too large and/or too frequent doses.  The main safety benefit of indole ring hallucinogens is that they can be effective in extremely small and extremely infrequent doses.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #8 on: Jun 6th, 2005, 10:19am »
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on Jun 5th, 2005, 8:03am, JJA wrote:

It seems to have a worse side effect profile than psilocybin, including some very serious circulation issues.  
 
Jesse

 
Jesse, what kind of circulation issues? LSA would likely be the next thing I try if kudzu ever fails me. Can you explain the circulation problems or point me in the direction of something I can read about it? Thanks.  Smiley
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #9 on: Jun 6th, 2005, 12:20pm »
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Nani,  
By "circulation issues" I meant vasoconstriction, possibly even ergotism. LSA is thought to cut off circulation much like methysergide. Possiblities range from horror story gangrene to more realisic cold hands and feet. It seems to be most applicable to recreation users trying to get and "LSD level" trip out of LSA. Information on this is pretty limited and mostly word of mouth from recreational users. I can't find any good links. Maybe someone else can??
 
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #10 on: Jun 6th, 2005, 2:03pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2005, 12:20pm, JJA wrote:
Nani,  
By "circulation issues" I meant vasoconstriction, possibly even ergotism. LSA is thought to cut off circulation much like methysergide. Possiblities range from horror story gangrene to more realisic cold hands and feet. It seems to be most applicable to recreation users trying to get and "LSD level" trip out of LSA. Information on this is pretty limited and mostly word of mouth from recreational users. I can't find any good links. Maybe someone else can??
 
Jesse

 
Guess this option is out for me then Sad I have a circulatory disease . One reason folks need to research and read everything before they try anything including alternative treatments.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #11 on: Jun 6th, 2005, 4:12pm »
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Ordered the seeds.  Both HBWS and the Rivea Corymbosa that Flash posted.  Kudzu worked well for me until I experienced shortness of breath and tightness in my chest, and I decided that I needed to get off of everything.  I have been only using O2 and white knuckleing it for about 2 months.  About 2 weeks ago I took a shot of trex as a last resort.  The CH is ramping up, and it won't be long before I need something.  The pain is just getting too much, and too frequent.  
 
So, since I have been off meds for a while, I thought I would be in a good position to try this.  The seeds should be here tomorrow.  I will try the Rivea Corymbosa first, and if they don't work well, I will go for HBW.
 
If this works, fantastic.  If not, on to somehting else.  
 
I am fully ok with being a Guinea Pig.
 
Casey
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #12 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 3:07am »
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Wish you every success Casey. Keep us posted.
FYI: No circulation problems detected at 5 seeds or less for "ME" with HBWR. 2 months out of cycle now.  
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #13 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 3:53am »
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on Jun 6th, 2005, 2:03pm, broomhilda wrote:

 
Guess this option is out for me then Sad I have a circulatory disease . One reason folks need to research and read everything before they try anything including alternative treatments.

 
I'm all for whatever brings a person pain free time, but this is where I hit a rock, too.  Many have read my Kudzu experience, and there have been a lot of varying opinions on it.  I actually did really read up on it - discussed it with my neurologist, etc.  
 
No...I couldn't 'detox' off my med list at the time because all of the meds I was taking (including verapamil) were used to treat other medical conditions other than CH.  Maybe that was my downfall.  I'll never know.
 
Although I do believe in trying alternatives for those who have the least likelihood for running into unknown complications, I stand by what I've always felt about them - natural/herbal/whatever does not mean "non-drug."  Everything comes with a risk.  
 
I know I probably sound like a prude, but for now...I don't like walking into the unknown.  As bad as some of the side effect lists are on the meds I've taken - at least I've been able to read all about them, and then take the leap....with a few exceptions where I didn't have access to all the info prior to the treatment due to certain circumstances.
 
I'm lying on the couch awake all night cuz of surgery on both knees for AVN - apparently a combination of my own biology but progressed/accelerated by taking prednisone.  I never knew steroids could do that until I was diagnosed.  In fact, I never even knew what AVN was.  But at the same time, not everyone who takes steroids gets AVN.  How can we ever know for sure who will wind up with what bad effects from whatever treatment we choose?  It's a scary thing...
 
I was given info today that potentially links AVN to coagulopathy disorders...this was of particular interest to me as I've had 2 blood clots, and also instances of massive hemorrhages, plus one golf-ball sized benign tumor made up of blood vessels.   Huh  I have a family history of various clotting disorders - ranging the scale from too much to too little.  It's like a sea of info that....if we spent every single day searching everything out there...we'd still never weed through it all.
 
I just would hope everyone would educate themselves as best as possible about whatever treatment path they choose.  There are times when I haven't made the best 'choices' based on the knowledge I had (for example - my bleeding disaster while on kudzu), but these are the risks we take.
 
Keep living - keep searching - never lose hope.
 
JMO,
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #14 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 4:34am »
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The circulatory problems caused by LSA are most likely due to the ergotamine content in the HBW seeds.  This is not likely to be the case with Rivea Corymbosa... but people should check first.  It certainly isn't the case with mushrooms which contain psilocybin.  All indole ring hallucinogens are very mild vascular constrictors though, about the same level as caffiene.
 
Now a word of warning, one of the clusterbusters reached a level 4 (out of 5) experience on only 5 HBW seeds.  Fortunately it worked out OK.  But this does illustrate the big problem with HBW which is consistency of dose.  So anyone determind to try HBW should consider kicking off with 1 seed or less to test the water.  Never assume two batches will be the same.  Personally I'l opt for Rivea Corymbosa instead!
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #15 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 2:49pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2005, 8:19am, JJA wrote:

In my opinion, among LSA, psilocybin and kudzu, psilocybin seems the safest from a physical health point of view. I say this because unlike the others, psilocybin has been commonly used for the past 40 years (but not for CH obviously). Any problems with this drug's safety would be known by now.

 
Rivea Corymbosa seeds (LSA) have been used as a sacrament by the Aztec and Mazatec tribes in the Sierra Mazatec mountains in Mexico for centuries. They're still a hearty bunch.
 
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #16 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 3:15pm »
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Good point BikerBob. I guess my thinking was more along the lines of psilocybin being a commonly used drug in the US, therefore being well studied relative to kudzu and LSA. Just between you and me I don't think LSA is dangerous either, but I couldn't back that up with anything.  
 
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #17 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 4:39pm »
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Lizzie I hope you are feeling better soon. Flash has a valid point, but let me also say that I have noticed "BIG" differences in pharmaceuticals potency as well from one pill to the next, and what about food poisoning. It is OK to be concerned about anything we put in our bodies. IMHO people that overeat and are obese are at more risk (DAILY) than me and 5 HBWR seeds every couple of weeks. Time to go read a joke Grin.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #18 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 4:51pm »
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Just now getting into this thread, so please excuse me if it's been talked about before.
 
While realizing that anyone trying this is acting as a guinea pig, I would have a serious concern about the dosage.   Some say 4 seeds...some say no more than 12...I'm 5' tall and weigh 105.  Wouldn't that be a factor in how much I should take?  A man who is 6'2"  would tolerate a lot more than I would.  
 
Too many variables for me no matter how desperate I was.
 
Linda
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #19 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 5:21pm »
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This chemical acts on the brain not the brawn. I have seen smaller sized people do different types of hallucinogens without stronger reactions. Linda if you are not at all comfortable trying this treatment than I would say that you are psychologicaly not in position to use it in any way. Your mental and physical safety are the most important thing in my mind. Stay safe. Blessing's Joe
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #20 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 5:49pm »
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thank you Joe.
 
   Nice to see a short response to a question.  
 
I appreciate it.
 
Linda
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #21 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 5:57pm »
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Quote:
While realizing that anyone trying this is acting as a guinea pig, I would have a serious concern about the dosage.   Some say 4 seeds...some say no more than 12...

Yes...some have started with 3, 4, or more. I think the starting point is just one or even a partial of one...to get a feel or footing/starting point...then work your way up from that point if needed.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #22 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 7:51pm »
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on Jun 7th, 2005, 4:39pm, jokrs2 wrote:
Lizzie I hope you are feeling better soon. Flash has a valid point, but let me also say that I have noticed "BIG" differences in pharmaceuticals potency as well from one pill to the next, and what about food poisoning. It is OK to be concerned about anything we put in our bodies. IMHO people that overeat and are obese are at more risk (DAILY) than me and 5 HBWR seeds every couple of weeks. Time to go read a joke Grin.
Blessings

 
 
LOL as far as I know - the only drugs that I've heard of having to watch brand to brand on are in the blood-thinning category - particularly warfarin (coumadin).  Even a small change in potency in this type of medication could lead to disasterous consequences to someone who really needs to maintain an accurate PT/INR.  It goes to show that there probably are some changes in potency between brands of meds, but it is unlikely that these changes are very significant in the vast majority of cases.
 
Now I don't go worrying about most things - usually I do not worry about food!  But some people do...  I definitely worry about anything that contains: haldol, benadryl, anticholinergics, phenothiazines, reglan, and droperidol......the effects (for me) range from anaphylaxis to severe cardiac effects to mental status changes to severe neurologic effects.  So I wear a medic alert bracelet.
 
I think with this list of "issues" not to mention ones I won't even begin to describe...I don't need to add any other things to worry with!
 
Again..whatever keeps ya goin. Smiley
 
Lizzie Smiley
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #23 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 5:51am »
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Also recommend testing th potency of each batch by ingesting a maximum of 1 seed first.  Seed potency can vary a lot with HBW.  Much more so than is true of mushrooms.
 
The same is true with most plant attributes.  Just looks at the flavour of things like grapes, tomatoes, olives, onions, garlic, etc...  So it shouldn't be a surprise to see potency vary.
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Re: LSA vs. other alternatives
« Reply #24 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 4:17pm »
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I just ordered the Rivea Corymbosa seeds from Iamshaman.com. These seeds will make a very nice plant for your indoor window box. The price for 100 seeds plus shipping was $20.44. I should get them early next week and will take a small dose on the following friday night. I opted to try these per Flash's report on no convulsive in the husk. Less side effects are always a better option if it will still produce the desired result, which is no CH hits or shadows. Since 40-45 seeds will produce a LSD type high I will be starting at perhaps 5-10 seeds. I will file a string on the Rivea after the dosing is over.
PFD&N's to all. Joe
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