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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #50 - Jun 14^th, 2008 at 1:48am And the man in charge who vetoed or threatened to veto any progressive legislation is? And the party on the right determined to undermine progressive legislation by filibuster is and did its best to try to negate the results of the 2006 election is? Charlie
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M.R.

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #51 - Jun 14^th, 2008 at 8:49am

And what "progressive" legislation has this congress come up with that the man in charged vetoed. To be honest, I haven't seen any good bill come out of the congress that wasn't full of pork and welfare.

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This isn't the right stopping them for drilling here.

Mike

P.S. As I pay my bills, I see that I used 222KWH and it cost me $23.48. And no, I'm not Amish either... Grin

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"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." --James Madison

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #52 - Jun 14^th, 2008 at 1:40pm

Steve Milloy. It rang a bell. He's a well-known apologist for big oil, and just about anything that will make him a buck writing to please those with deep pockets. Typical Fox stuff. Nothing he writes about oil can be trusted.

Nonetheless, it would be nice if there is enough oil to pump but it would also be nice to work on alternate sources at the same time. It boils down to whom would you believe: Those that stand to make tens of billions pumping oil or those that stand to make very little. Who do you think would have the most to gain by wild exaggeration?

I'm not against drilling but I don't rely on FOX BS to light the way.

Charlie

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #53 - Jun 14^th, 2008 at 10:03pm

Charlie wrote on Jun 12^th, 2008 at 9:11pm:

I paid $19 last month.

Had to check my bill for May, Charlie. $18.74, by a nose! Wink

Ah yes, Steve Milloy.

Steven Milloy publishes JunkScience.com and DemandDebate.com. He is a junk science expert, advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.

Quote:

Steven J. Milloy, began his career with TASSC.

The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition (TASSC) is a now defunct industry-funded PR front group run by the APCO Worldwide public relations firm. It worked to hang the label of "junk science" on environmentalists. Created in 1993, TASSC began as a front for Philip Morris...

The Philip Morris effort also spawned the "junk science" home page. junkscience.com writer/editor/publisher Steven Milloy worked for TASSC, ultimately as its executive director before the sham operation was allowed to fade out of existence:

Citizens for the Integrity of Science [in 1999], and the debunked TASSC share the same address at 1155 Connecticut Avenue, NW, Suite 300 in Washington, DC. [9]

This is the same phone number and address Milloy has used for the Citizens for the Integrity of Science, Junkscience.com, NoMoresScares.com, and of course, the defunct The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition.

Milloy, an 'Adjunk' Scholar at Cato Institute encountered Rupert Murdoch during Murdock's term as Cato Director -- thus leading to Milloy's Junk Science columns on Fox News website and newspapers.

[I've previously listed the "scholars" on the oil payroll for the Cato Institute in a different thread.]

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The Independent (UK), Sept. 20, 2005

One reason why Western governments have been slow to respond to the climate crisis is that they are under constant pressure from lobbying groups that defend the interests of eco-unfriendly industry.

The selection of groups profiled here gives you some idea of how corporate money and politics mix.

1. THE COMPETITIVE ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE
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Where are they based?
Washington, DC

What do they believe?
... that global warming is a European plot to damage US competitiveness. The CEI funded by Exxon Mobil unleash a torrent of press releases uncovering "flaws" in the work of climatologists who believe in climate change.

2. THE AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE
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Where are they based?Washington, DC

and on and on...

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #54 - Jun 14^th, 2008 at 10:26pm

Here is another side of that story Steven Milloy reported on:

Quote:

An appeal board of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency rejected required air permits for ConocoPhillips planned expansion of its Wood River Refinery in Roxana, Ill.

The Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) led the challenge, which argued that harmful air pollution from the refinery's flares, which relieve pressure in the refining process, was not being sufficiently controlled. The decision means ConocoPhillips will have to come up with a plan to hold flare emissions down.

"Our intention is not to stop the expansion project, but to ensure that the refinery lives up to the standards of the Clean Air Act and its protections for the people who live and work nearby," Ann Alexander, senior attorney for the NRDC and lead litigator on the challenge, said in a statement. "ConocoPhillips simply ignored the requirement to find and use the best available pollution control technology."

A ConocoPhillips spokesperson was not immediately available for comment.

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Steve Milloy is an adjunct scholar of Competitive Enterprise Institute. For 2006, this is a listed accomplishment on the CEI website:

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2006

In early February, CEI goes on the offensive over the media furor regarding syndicated columnists being paid to write favorable op-eds for clients. Senior Fellow Iain Murray states in an op-ed, "What are Op-Eds for?" published in The American Spectator , "An opinion piece--whether an individual op-ed or a column--exists to promote a point of view by argument. It does not seek to establish a fact, but to win people over to a particular viewpoint or opinion."

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Charlie CH.com Alumnus Offline Happy to be here Posts: 18971 Jamestown, NY Gender:	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #55 - Jun 15^th, 2008 at 4:29pm We need a Theodore Roosevelt Kev. Charlie
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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #56 - Jun 15^th, 2008 at 7:46pm

Believe me, if someone came up with an alternative energy, I would praise him/her/it as much as anyone (notice how wonderfully PC I am there..... Grin

). That fact being that more of the oil being produced is of the heavier, more polluting kind. That includes a lot of the stuff on this side of the pond.

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Perhaps I shouldn't listen to WSJ BS either. We can't have it both ways. You use non-polluting refiners, use the "lighter" crude. The stuff that our "good friends" have, and becoming rarer. If you don't use any nuclear plants, you have no nuclear waste. If you don't put up any windmills in Ted Kennedy's back yard, you have no wind power either. You use corn for ethanol, you get higher food prices (and I thought mandating it was wrong, by the way). Ya can hate the messenger, but the message is the same. Until there is an alternative energy or we use a lot less than we do now, we need to do what we can to produce more or we are stuck with high prices. And then don't bitch to me.
By the way Charlie, you never did answer my question of what progressive legislation did our fine and wonderful congress come up with that Bush vetoed?

Mike

P.S. You know I love you, man.

Edit to fix typing spams and to throw this in, anacana I thought it was funny....

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"Charity is no part of the legislative duty of the government." --James Madison

James Taranto ” [D]o you know what they call people who rely on themselves? Adults."

Thomas Jefferson, "Bind [them] down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #57 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 11:57am

M.R. wrote on Jun 15^th, 2008 at 7:46pm:

Ya can hate the messenger, but the message is the same. Until there is an alternative energy or we use a lot less than we do now, we need to do what we can to produce more or we are stuck with high prices.

This messenger isn't looking for alternative energy or using less:

Quote:

DALLAS -- Rex Tillerson, chairman and chief executive of Exxon Mobil Corp.

... his company views it as its "corporate social responsibility" to continue to supply the world with fossil fuels.

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I like his slipping in the use of "corporate social responsibility."

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Corporate social responsibility (CSR, also called corporate responsibility, corporate citizenship, and responsible business) is a concept whereby organizations consider the interests of society by taking responsibility for the impact of their activities on customers, suppliers, employees, shareholders, communities and other stakeholders, as well as the environment. This obligation is seen to extend beyond the statutory obligation to comply with legislation and sees organizations voluntarily taking further steps to improve the quality of life for employees and their families as well as for the local community and society at large.

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Wow, has that term now mutated.

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Tiannia CH.com Alumnus Offline Life does not apologies...... Posts: 3422 Eugene, OR Gender:	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #58 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 4:56pm signed
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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #59 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 5:08pm

What has Bush vetoed: It's more his threats than vetoes that make our beloved supremely elected President so popular. Bush's veto of SCHIP (Expansion of health care for children) comes to mind, which 81 percent of the public supports.

The farm bill with all its flaws contained something like ten billion dollars for nutrition programs---food stamps. Can't have that.

Faced with a Democratic Congress, Bush—who vetoed nothing during his first five and a half years in office—is now on the warpath. These and more to come and threats to veto something like a dozen more tend to slow things down. The Democratic-led House and some Republicans would like to get a few things going but unfortunately, the President hates Congress now that it doesn't rubber stamp his killing anything not in step with the James Dobson and K-Steet lobbyist wings. This stuff doesn't get far because of the GOP's filibusters and threats. Congress is stuck because the GOP is stuck with Bush and the only thing the GOP can now do for power.....it has to show its power or else.... is to stifle progress for the American people on these key issues. All it takes is a word or two stuck in a bill to kill it.

Anyway Bush opposes or has threatened to veto 60 percent of the House's work. It's a waste of time while enough neocons block everything not useful in the coming elections.

He seems oblivious to the fact that he is certainly going to be remembered as one of if not the worst President in history. The GOP has a lot to thank him for as well. Bush has driven a stake through its heart for some time to come....I guess it's not all bad.

Charlie

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #60 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 5:53pm

Charlie wrote on Jun 16^th, 2008 at 5:08pm:

What has Bush vetoed: It's more his threats than vetoes that make our beloved supremely elected President so popular. Bush's veto of SCHIP (Expansion of health care for children) comes to mind, which 81 percent of the public supports.

The farm bill with all its flaws contained something like ten billion dollars for nutrition programs---food stamps. Can't have that.

Faced with a Democratic Congress, Bush—who vetoed nothing during his first five and a half years in office—is now on the warpath. These and more to come and threats to veto something like a dozen more tend to slow things down. The Democratic-led House and some Republicans would like to get a few things going but unfortunately, the President hates Congress now that it doesn't rubber stamp his killing anything not in step with the James Dobson and K-Steet lobbyist wings. This stuff doesn't get far because of the GOP's filibusters and threats. Congress is stuck because the GOP is stuck with Bush and the only thing the GOP can now do for power.....it has to show its power or else.... is to stifle progress for the American people on these key issues. All it takes is a word or two stuck in a bill to kill it.

Anyway Bush opposes or has threatened to veto 60 percent of the House's work. It's a waste of time while enough neocons block everything not useful in the coming elections.

He seems oblivious to the fact that he is certainly going to be remembered as one of if not the worst President in history. The GOP has a lot to thank him for as well. Bush has driven a stake through its heart for some time to come....I guess it's not all bad.

Charlie

The president can veto anything he wants, but Congress can override a presidential veto if they have enough votes. If 81% of the public supported legislation and those people actually talked to their congressmen, then the measure would have passed. People weren't concerned enough to demand their congressmen pass the measure, therefore the measure didn't pass. Ultimately, it was the people's fault.

The problem with voting in flawed legislation is that all the flaws become law, too. I'd rather congress do nothing than to make things worse than they are. Too bad they don't feel the same way.

There needs to be a lot more common sense and a much tighter control of the purse strings of the welfare system in this country. I've got no problem with taking care of people who legitimately NEED the help. I have a hard time paying strong healthy men to lay about and baby machines to pump out more kids to suck of the government tit. There are people around here paying $40 or $50 bucks on their $350 or $400 rental units when there are other able-bodied adults living in the house that are not working. There's a lot of work the city/state pay people to do that could be being done by these layabouts.

The GOP sucks. The Dems suck. They all suck. We have to vote for the ones that suck the least. As I said before, it's time to drop party alliances. Study the issues and where the candidates stand on what's important to you and vote your values.

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #61 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 6:03pm

There is a somewhat appealing theory that every bill should require a two-thirds majority. The idea being that if 33-1/3 percent of a legislature dislikes it; it probably isn't very good. It no doubt comes from a libertarian end which as I say: Can be appealing. I don't think we would like this place if it were so arbitrary however.

Charlie

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #62 - Jun 16^th, 2008 at 10:27pm

Charlie wrote on Jun 16^th, 2008 at 6:03pm:

There is a somewhat appealing theory that every bill should require a two-thirds majority.

Yeah I know. A little over two years ago, Republicans couldn't pass gas without a filibuster from the left. They are all playing a childish game of tit for tat. It was wrong and ridiculous then, it is just as wrong and ridiculous now.

The idea being that if 33-1/3 percent of a legislature dislikes it; it probably isn't very good. It no doubt comes from a libertarian end which as I say: Can be appealing. I don't think we would like this place if it were so arbitrary however.

Charlie

Now wait, before 81% of the population approved a certain legislation and it being potentially vetoed was a bad thing. Now we wouldn't like this place if the majority ruled? Is that because you know that if the majority were listened to, the trend towards liberalism would be stopped or seriously slowed down? So basically, no matter how many of the American people want a particular piece of legislation to pass, if it doesn't meet the socialist agenda, then the idea is bad.

People talk about high ideals and a better world when they are surrounded by large groups of like talking people, but I really believe that if you stood every person up individually, stripped all the pie in the sky utopia crap away and asked them point blank what they wanted for themselves, their children and their children's children, most would line up just right of center.

Liberalism is like a cancer destroying this country from the inside out. We ignore the smell of death because we want to believe that the lie that one more social program will make this a better world. If we pay just a little more in taxes, everything will be alright. Throw more money at the problems and they will vanish. The biggest problem in this country can't be solved with money, because the biggest problem we have is apathy. The people are abdicating more and more of their freedoms to the government and government never stops taking and never stops growing willingly. Every new law and every new social program is another link in the chains that bind us into servitude and guarantees the destruction of this country.

As to online/e-mail polls and petitions...online and e-mail polls and petitions are called "Slacktivism." They give the participant a good feeling about him or herself for "helping" without actually having to expend any effort. Congress pays no little to no attention to them. If you want to get a congressman's ear, hit him where he lives - in the vote. Send him a letter telling him that if he does not start towing the line (and spelling out where that line is), you will vote him out next election and then get your friends and others to do the same thing. If enough people do this, things will change.

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #63 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 7:55am

Posted by: Gator Posted on: Yesterday at 5:53pm
Quote:

There needs to be a lot more common sense and a much tighter control of the purse strings of the welfare system in this country. I've got no problem with taking care of people who legitimately NEED the help.

MI did a lot of welfare reform in the 90's. I believe state governors have much more control now for their states.

Quote:

In 1991 Governor Engler (MI) eliminated General Assistance, a state cash-assistance program... This action did not require federal approval.

In 1992 President Clinton vowed to "end welfare as we know it." Governors found federal welfare laws/regulations overly prescriptive; most would opt for more flexibility, even if it meant less federal funding. In 1996 President Clinton kept his promise by signing the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act (PRWORA).

Responsibility for welfare had devolved to the states.

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December 6, 1995

Governor Engler Signs Welfare Reform Bills

Michigan Governor John Engler today signed welfare reform legislation putting in place the first and most sweeping welfare reforms in the nation to implement federal block grants.

"With this legislation, Michigan becomes the first state in the nation ready to move forward to implement innovative work-based reforms to move even more people from the welfare rolls to private payrolls," said Governor Engler.

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Published: January 22, 1996

Mr. Engler's plan may change the shape of the welfare debate because many governors, increasingly expected to design their own programs, are looking for guidance. Michigan, Wisconsin and Massachusetts are at the forefront of the search to make welfare programs less costly by finding jobs for those without work.

The Michigan plan, which takes effect on April 1, is called Project Zero because its aim is to reduce unemployment to zero among welfare recipients.

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Although I don't have a report card on how it's working out.

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Brew Ex Member	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #64 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 5:54pm What kills me is that true conservatives dislike him almost as intensely, but for all the opposite reasons.
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Tiannia CH.com Alumnus Offline Life does not apologies...... Posts: 3422 Eugene, OR Gender:	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #65 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 6:10pm I am not sure what th alternatives that will make a difference quickly, but I signed. It would seem that it would be great for car dealers to develop new types of hybrids or whatever, but they will all be too expensive for the typical middle class family to buy.
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Charlie

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #66 - Jun 17^th, 2008 at 10:05pm

Quote:

Liberalism is like a cancer destroying this country from the inside out.[/size]

Oh really? If liberalism a cancer it's the slowest moving one there is and seems to go into remission for a time after regular conservative cash injections.

It took this country 130 years to find its way towards any serious federal regulations....under a Republican. It took another 30 for the New Deal, which until now, has kept this a pretty nice place to hang--despite the relentless Republican attempts to kill off the few remainng pieces. Since the deregulation zeal of the 1980s, any progress has gotten more and more top heavy. Few big businesses have an interest in self-regulation. Real workers wages, pensions, and medical insurance have gone down, disappeared, or become harder to find or use. That when business treats its workers and customers fairly....those fabulous fifties are the best example.....makes for a better country in every way, seems of little interest.

Dubya & Co. have clearly shown just how important it is to throw a bone to us now and then. If they had, they still might be running Congress. The country has usually been center-left but that edge has too often been countered with money bins full of cash by by unpatriotic people who don't like the people in their own country.

Americans don't have a centrist party and every time one looks like it might take hold, it's treated like a party of treasonists and or banned from debates. Something un-American about that.

Charlie

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #67 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 9:09am

And we will never be able to "fix" our government until the voters on both sides pull their heads out of the sand and realize that they are being played by the "two" major parties. They sit back, make sound bites about fixing things, and just make them worse, the only thing they are able to do effectively is to line the coiffers of their supporters with our tax dollars. They're really good at that. They will NEVER fix anything, if they started fixing things, then what could they campaign on? Hmmmmmm.... Think about it, really think about it. If you're able to.

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jimmers Ex Member	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #68 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 9:29am Well said Thomas! Jimmers
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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #69 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 10:14am

I agree with Thomas -- our government is broken and the "people" are the only ones who can fix it -- thru the VOTE.

It's about time people came to realize that. I'm hearing "We don't have a choice and I'll be damned if I"m going to vote this year!" To me this isn't an option - VOTE and THEN make sure those you voted for DO THE JOB YOU HIRED THEM TO DO!

Yes, before you vote, study what they stand for -ASK QUESTIONS - what are you planning to do? Then after they're elected - make sure they DO IT!

We've turned our country over to 535 men and women in DC and then we sit back and give lip service to how they're screwing up our lives, but what the devil are WE doing about it? We HIRED these people - it's up to US to see that they do what WE hired them to do, yet most people in this country don't even know WHO they hired to run the country. We've been programed to believe "Trust me - I know what's best for you!"

Then I hear, "I just don't want to get invovled!" Why the hell not? Do you not live in this country? Do you LIKE what's going on? Until the American People take back this country we're not going to see any changes made in Congress. But when people start sending the messages to Congress that "Enough is Enough!" then we'll see some changes, but it'll take the American public to do this. Now IS the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country..... While we still have a country to come to the aid of!

Hugs BD

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #70 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 3:28pm

And at the top of the "green" food chain we have dear old Al "I made green off of green" Gore.

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I would like to know why Mr. Gore thinks it is ok for the rest of us to live in wikkiups, cook over a dung fire, eat roots and grubs and walk or ride a bike to save the planet while his carbon footprint is the size of Texas. Guess he really dosn't care about global warming as long as he can turn a profit off of fear mongering.

What a hypocrite! Unfucking believable! And no, there is no such thing as "carbon neutral" You either conserve or you don't. I guess he really is liberal....about wasting energy! LOL!

-P.

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Brew

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Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #71 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 4:21pm

Paul98 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 3:28pm:

And at the top of the "green" food chain we have dear old Al "I made green off of green" Gore.

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I would like to know why Mr. Gore thinks it is ok for the rest of us to live in wikkiups, cook over a dung fire, eat roots and grubs and walk or ride a bike to save the planet while his carbon footprint is the size of Texas. Guess he really dosn't care about global warming as long as he can turn a profit off of fear mongering.

What a hypocrite! Unfucking believable! And no, there is no such thing as "carbon neutral" You either conserve or you don't. I guess he really is liberal....about wasting energy! LOL!

-P.

Last year, after having all of his conventional energy-using systems removed and replaced with "green" alternatives, the energy consumption of his residence increased over 1100 kwh per month. He now uses just shy of 18,000 kwh per month, more than the average consumer uses in a year.

And he just gave his ringing endorsement to B. Hussein Obama (keep in mind that an Algore endorsement is, historically, a kiss of death).

Everyone needs to think about which horse they're going to hitch their cart to.

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Agostino Leyre CH.com Sponsor Offline "Hit like a phillips head into my brain." Posts: 3803 Madison WI USA Gender:	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #72 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 4:22pm They are all hypocrites, Paul. All of them.
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The Swamp, Florida

Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less...
Reply #73 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 4:25pm

Paul98 wrote on Jun 18^th, 2008 at 3:28pm:

And at the top of the "green" food chain we have dear old Al "I made green off of green" Gore.

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I would like to know why Mr. Gore thinks it is ok for the rest of us to live in wikkiups, cook over a dung fire, eat roots and grubs and walk or ride a bike to save the planet while his carbon footprint is the size of Texas. Guess he really dosn't care about global warming as long as he can turn a profit off of fear mongering.

What a hypocrite! Unfucking believable! And no, there is no such thing as "carbon neutral" You either conserve or you don't. I guess he really is liberal....about wasting energy! LOL!

-P.

He's running a business out of his home, and even if expansion of the business means reduced global energy consumption (debatable, but possible), it will generally mean more local consumption. Dow-Corning uses a lot of energy to produce insulation, and I will be putting some of my stimulus check to help fuel their pink-stuff factory. I will be consuming more energy in order to consume less energy.

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« Last Edit: Jun 18^th, 2008 at 4:26pm by monty »

The outer boundary of what we currently believe is feasible is far short of what we actually must do.

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Callico CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Author of "Stranded at Romson's Lodge Posts: 4916 Aurora IL Gender:	Re: Drill here, drill now, pay less... Reply #74 - Jun 18^th, 2008 at 4:54pm Barbara, you said it! It is high time we tell them they work for us, and if they don't start doing the job right we need to FIRE them! Jerry
Back to top	"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end." Texas A&M Student (unknown) IP Logged

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