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MITYRARE

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #275 - Oct 26^th, 2010 at 6:37pm

Kurtz wrote on Oct 26^th, 2010 at 12:53pm:

Hi guys, new to the site but long time sufferer of CH (going on 12 years). I think I may have something interesting to add to this discussion...

I am a user of anabolic steroids, and have been on and off since my early twenties (I am 33 now). I am in the middle of a 12 week cycle of anabolic steroids and have been suffering another cycle of CH for the last 3 months or so.

The dosage and types of steroids I am taking are as follows:

- T400, injectable, dosage: 500mg/week. T400 is a blend of 188mg/mL of Testosterone Cypionate, 187 mg/mL of Testosterone Enanthate, and 25 mg/mL of Testosterone Propionate.

- Anavar (oxandrolone), orally administered, dosage: 30mg/day

While this still obviously creates a testosterone imbalance in my system, it is not a shortage but an excess.

Unfortunately I can tell you that the test does absolutely nothing to help with my headaches. The CH cycle I am in now has been particularly long and painful. I am currently taking 450 mg/day of Verapmil and it's effect is waning by the day/week. I am considering further increasing the Verapmil dosage myself out of desperation, mostly due to sleep deprivation; however, last time (last cycle, last year) I went to 3x 180 Verap pills a day I started to develop irregular heartbeats and I got the feeling my body was warning me to back off.

These things are killin me though. I am an engineer at a refinery and a shift worker. My job requires me to be at the top of my game at all times, and sleep deprivation does not play well into that. Most "nights" sleep occur in a series of 1 to 1.5 hour shifts as I am repeatedly awoken with an all too familiar dull throbbing in my head that quickly escalates into the unimaginable agony I'm sure you are all aware of.

Anyhow, glad to be here. If you have any questions regarding my steroid usage or anything else for that matter feel free to ask. Undecided

Kurtz,

So based on your post you have been dealing with CH ever since you started manipulating your hormones. Did you ever think of it that way?

Body building consumes large amounts of testosterone to build muscle mass...perhaps all your natural hormone plus the injected T is being used to build mass and there is not enough in consistent even quantities to keep the pituitary and hypothalamous happy....just a thought for consideration.

Paul

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Kurtz

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #276 - Oct 26^th, 2010 at 7:10pm

MITYRARE wrote on Oct 26^th, 2010 at 6:37pm:

Kurtz wrote on Oct 26^th, 2010 at 12:53pm:

Hi guys, new to the site but long time sufferer of CH (going on 12 years). I think I may have something interesting to add to this discussion...

I am a user of anabolic steroids, and have been on and off since my early twenties (I am 33 now). I am in the middle of a 12 week cycle of anabolic steroids and have been suffering another cycle of CH for the last 3 months or so.

The dosage and types of steroids I am taking are as follows:

- T400, injectable, dosage: 500mg/week. T400 is a blend of 188mg/mL of Testosterone Cypionate, 187 mg/mL of Testosterone Enanthate, and 25 mg/mL of Testosterone Propionate.

- Anavar (oxandrolone), orally administered, dosage: 30mg/day

While this still obviously creates a testosterone imbalance in my system, it is not a shortage but an excess.

Unfortunately I can tell you that the test does absolutely nothing to help with my headaches. The CH cycle I am in now has been particularly long and painful. I am currently taking 450 mg/day of Verapmil and it's effect is waning by the day/week. I am considering further increasing the Verapmil dosage myself out of desperation, mostly due to sleep deprivation; however, last time (last cycle, last year) I went to 3x 180 Verap pills a day I started to develop irregular heartbeats and I got the feeling my body was warning me to back off.

These things are killin me though. I am an engineer at a refinery and a shift worker. My job requires me to be at the top of my game at all times, and sleep deprivation does not play well into that. Most "nights" sleep occur in a series of 1 to 1.5 hour shifts as I am repeatedly awoken with an all too familiar dull throbbing in my head that quickly escalates into the unimaginable agony I'm sure you are all aware of.

Anyhow, glad to be here. If you have any questions regarding my steroid usage or anything else for that matter feel free to ask. Undecided

Kurtz,

So based on your post you have been dealing with CH ever since you started manipulating your hormones. Did you ever think of it that way?

Body building consumes large amounts of testosterone to build muscle mass...perhaps all your natural hormone plus the injected T is being used to build mass and there is not enough in consistent even quantities to keep the pituitary and hypothalamous happy....just a thought for consideration.

Paul

As far as my anabolic steroid usage being responsible for exposing me to CH, it is simply not a possibility as I did not begin using steroids until one year following to a cluster attack. I remember this very clearly, as when I started taking the steroids my thinking was to give my body an enhanced regenerative state in an attempt to compensate for a lack of sleep - which began to impact my workout schedule. I felt like crap all the time and my friends who were all users at the time convinced me to try a cycle to see if it helped.

As far as the test "spiking", while to some small degree this is true, the "spikes" you would find are very small. There is 2 reasons for this. First of all, T400 is a blend of 3 different types of Test, as noted. This cocktail if you will, is a blend of medium and long-estered test molecules. The length of the ester determines the amount of time a compound will remain active in your system, as the longer estered test takes longer to process, while the shorter esters are used up quicker.

Also, I administer one half mL shot every three days, so the test levels in my system remain high, and constant. Having wildly fluctuating levels of test in your system would wreck havok on a serious bodybuilding program.

As an added note, these steroids are supplied to me and their administration regulated by a professional bodybuilder/fitness trainer who also holds a degree in biochemistry. I have known him since my youth and trust his knowledge on the matter of steroid usage much more than I ever would the word of my doctor even. This man has built a living around steroids and their effects on the human body.

I know a lot of people are holding onto hope that test replacement is a possible cure, and it is by no means my intent to disappoint anyone. It should be noted that what I do to my body is by no means a scientific study and I myself am no expert on this subject. Don't discount this treatment based on my words, rather I hope within there is information to somehow help in this important research.

The sooner we can beat this thing the better. Hopefully it's sooner cuz lately I think I am losing my mind. I can't think of a more terrible thing one could suffer though.

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« Last Edit: Oct 26^th, 2010 at 7:11pm by Kurtz »

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Kurtz

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #277 - Oct 26^th, 2010 at 7:16pm

Quote:

Kurtz,

So based on your post you have been dealing with CH ever since you started manipulating your hormones. Did you ever think of it that way?

Body building consumes large amounts of testosterone to build muscle mass...perhaps all your natural hormone plus the injected T is being used to build mass and there is not enough in consistent even quantities to keep the pituitary and hypothalamous happy....just a thought for consideration.

I think you are mistaken regarding the function of testosterone in the body. It is a hormone, responsible for the regulation of a great many things such as sex drive, protein synthesis etc. It is not "consumed" by bodybuilding or anything else for that matter, rather its levels naturally fall due to mechanisms such as aromatization to estrogen etc.

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« Last Edit: Oct 26^th, 2010 at 8:08pm by Kurtz »

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Callico

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #278 - Oct 26^th, 2010 at 9:28pm

Kurtz,

You said you have probs with Verap if you go any higher. Please don't increase it without working closely with a Dr. The side effects, plus the lowering of the blood pressure are not something to be done on your own.

since you are having issues with Verap let me suggest one of two things. Talk with your Dr about adding Lithium to the Verap. Many get relief in this manner. The second would be to try Kudzu. If you look in the Meds and Treatment page you will find numerous mentions of it. I've posted a number of times about it, but if you will go back into the archives and do a search you will find a long thread, almost as long as this one, concerning Kudzu. Nani is the one who started that post, and you will find a great deal of info there. That is when i started after having been on Verap and Lithium, but having difficulties with the side effects. I've gotten as good of results with Kudzu as I did with the combo and without side problems.

Jerry

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plateglass

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #279 - Nov 4^th, 2010 at 6:10pm

Just to keep all updated, I was getting 3-4 ha's per night. The T gel knocked out all the daytime hits. I was prescribed Clomiphene citrate @ 50 mgs per day. It has been 10 days since I started and to my amazement Shocked

I haven't gotten ANY ha's...(knock on a friggin redwood!!) Thanks again to AlleyOop for the information on the medication and well wishes! Again I will keep you all updated.

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alleyoop

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #280 - Nov 4^th, 2010 at 9:42pm

plateglass wrote on Nov 4^th, 2010 at 6:10pm:

Just to keep all updated, I was getting 3-4 ha's per night. The T gel knocked out all the daytime hits. I was prescribed Clomiphene citrate @ 50 mgs per day. It has been 10 days since I started and to my amazement Shocked

I haven't gotten ANY ha's...(knock on a friggin redwood!!) Thanks again to AlleyOop for the information on the medication and well wishes! Again I will keep you all updated.

I love it! Smiley

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plateglass

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #281 - Nov 24^th, 2010 at 6:40pm

Just to keep the update rolling I have great news. It's been about a month on the Clomiphene Citrate and I have not gotten any ha's or shadows...

The testosterone test came back and I'm off the charts at around 900! up from 270 ish. This stuff really works to trigger the testosterone boost and keep away or actually end the cycle. OOh yeah I almost forgot I haven't used the T-gel in 10 days! More people should give this a look, it has worked wonders for me. Tks again Allyoop.

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Guiseppi CH.com Moderator CH.com Alumnus Offline San Diego to Florida 05-16-2011 Posts: 12063 SAN DIEGO, CALIFORNIA USA Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #282 - Nov 24^th, 2010 at 6:43pm Lord knows we love hearing success stories like this. Doesn't work for everyone but sure worth getting tested. Joe
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alleyoop CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Am I self-centered or is it just me? Posts: 1177 Hiawassee, GA USA Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #283 - Nov 24^th, 2010 at 6:48pm You're most welcome Bro! And you are right -- more should give this a look! Clomiphene gave me my life back. It's been over two years now since I started on it, and I'm not looking back.
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Erics.Parents

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #284 - Nov 24^th, 2010 at 11:12pm

Okay, I just went to the end of the post and hope your not too irrated that I might be asking question that have been already answered.

Did you get any kind of test that showed low testostrone? Can I get the report that you offered someone else earlier on in the post?

My son has never had any blood test, we are seeing a new doctor and I would like to see this and show it to the new doctor.

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alleyoop CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Am I self-centered or is it just me? Posts: 1177 Hiawassee, GA USA Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #285 - Nov 25^th, 2010 at 9:07am I posted the entire article by Dr. Rozen several pages back in this thread. I think I did it in two separate posts. If you want to pm me with your email address, I will be glad to send the article as an attachment. Best, bobb
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plateglass CH.com Junior Offline Posts: 67 Seaside Heights, NJ Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #286 - Nov 25^th, 2010 at 11:13am thanks all.. I am not looking back either Bob. Here is the report on Clomiphene Citrate that opened my eyes. Steve
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alleyoop CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Am I self-centered or is it just me? Posts: 1177 Hiawassee, GA USA Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #287 - Nov 25^th, 2010 at 12:01pm Thanks Steve for posting the attachment. I must have had a brain fart.
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plateglass

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #288 - Nov 25^th, 2010 at 6:17pm

No problem, and as for Ericsparents. I had a testosterone test done by my neuroligist. It is a simple blood test which indicated low Testosterone while I am in cycle. As of now I am not sure if the headaches cause the low T or the other way around, all I know is for me it is connected and this medication has completley ended my pain. Any questions just ask.
Steve Grin

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alleyoop CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Am I self-centered or is it just me? Posts: 1177 Hiawassee, GA USA Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #289 - Nov 25^th, 2010 at 7:34pm Way kewl!!! Happy Thanksgiving Steve!
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MITYRARE CH.com Old Timer Offline autocross racer Posts: 361 Ontario, Canada Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #290 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 5:35pm We may have to retitle this thread from "why don't we pay attention to this?".... to "Nice to see so many having success with this!" I will have an update on my ch in a couple weeks. stay tuned. Paul
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plateglass CH.com Junior Offline Posts: 67 Seaside Heights, NJ Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #291 - Nov 30^th, 2010 at 7:57am I agree Paul, I am anxiously awaiting your update, I hope all is well with you. Steve
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julyn

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #292 - Dec 5^th, 2010 at 1:49pm

I hesitate to write this as it offers no solution.However i am almost certain that this pain has to do with both hormones and the liver.unfortunately the meds present a vicious circle as they dont help the liver but i cannot live without them.In Holland it is scientifically proven that at least in women the ch sufferers decrease by 90% after menopause.That screams hormones.I believe for some the shrooms work as there are more than one cause to this monster.The shrooms wake up a part of us that we seem to have repressed or buried but for many of us that is not enough.There is the factor of anger in us that plays a significant role as well ,in my 14 yrs experience of daily confrontation of repeated hits with this monster.Being a female I totally agree we should check our hormone levels and our diet and our mind and our heart.For I believe or should I say in my experience, it seems to me they all play a role . Plus checking the parasite and candida levels in the intestines.
May we all beat the beast one day
Until then lets keep trying!!!!
We will overcome ,I pray!

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Erics.Parents

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #293 - Dec 6^th, 2010 at 8:01pm

OK...I've got an appt. for Eric Thursday. I gave the neurologist the document that is attached on this thread about Clomiphene Citrate and low testosterone. I going to ask for a blood test (more like demand it).

Question though, what is the normal range for testosterone.

Also got a dr. appt. with another dr. for a second opinion.

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MITYRARE

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Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this?
Reply #294 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 7:56pm

LONG UPDATE

This coming Sunday will be two years since i began HRT for clusters... and my clusters ended on Dec 30 2008 (after 30 years of clock-like regularity).

Since then I have had a total of 4 singular clusters come randomly...no explanation other than perhaps ineffective absorption of Androgel due to sweating it off before complete absorption.

I always know when I am in cycle as I do get very faint/distant shadows...nothing enough to impair me in any way...very faint.

I have been able to precipitate a cluster shadow using my traditional triggers (colognes, gasoline fumes etc) whenever in cycle and for some strange reason i seem to want to verify my cycles this way...so the CH are not gone but are just deeply buried by the hormone.

This past week I spoke to my doctor about Clomophene Citrate and he agrees that it will cause testosterone levels to spike in men (thats why weightlifters use it).

HOWEVER, he cautioned that he would rather I stay the course with Androgel as it works (for me) and has decades of use under its belt versus Clomiphene Citrate which has scant history of long term use documented to date in men.

My doc took the copy of the report I printed off (thanks Alleyoop) and will see if any clinical trials or research is being done here in Canada that would indicate a preference over Androgel for long term use.

No doubt that with long term Androgel there is some atrophy of the testes, but reports of reduced ejaculate and other sexual disfunctions have been unfounded by my experience. My sex drive has not changed either (always has been strong) although a friend that is also using HRT for CH has said his poor sex drive has improved significantly with HRT.

I continue to have regular prostrate tests including PSA so that should something change, the HRT would have to be stopped...the same would be true of Clomiphene Citrate.

If HRT proves only partially successful but not completely for you, then I would most certainly campaign your doc to try the Clomiphene.

My experience has been great...but I never take one day for granted as we all know how the beast can often find a way to get around successful treatments over time.

Hopefully this hormone connection can provide docs with the key to sorting out the cause of these headaches and find a therapy that will be effective in all cases.

.... it may seem like a dream, but i can assure you I am living one right now and I am living it to the fullest every day.

Be vigilant and try everything at your disposal so that you can get your share of pain free days.

Best wishes to all.

Paul

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Paul
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Callico CH.com Hall of Famer Offline Author of "Stranded at Romson's Lodge Posts: 4916 Aurora IL Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #295 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 10:14pm Paul, You have no idea how happy that report makes me! May it never end! Jerry
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MITYRARE CH.com Old Timer Offline autocross racer Posts: 361 Ontario, Canada Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #296 - Dec 9^th, 2010 at 3:26pm Callico wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 10:14pm: Paul, You have no idea how happy that report makes me! May it never end! Jerry Thanks Jerry Paul
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Erics.Parents CH.com Junior Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 27	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #297 - Dec 11^th, 2010 at 6:46pm We just got Eric on Clomiphene citrate. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE let it work.
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MITYRARE CH.com Old Timer Offline autocross racer Posts: 361 Ontario, Canada Gender:	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #298 - Dec 11^th, 2010 at 6:56pm I have my fingers crossed for Eric and his parents. Wouldn't that be the greatest Christmas present ever. Paul
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Erics.Parents CH.com Junior Offline I Love CH.com! Posts: 27	Re: WHY don't we pay attention to this? Reply #299 - Dec 11^th, 2010 at 10:00pm Thanks, I'll keep you updated.
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