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123 Days PF And I Think I know Why (Read 444676 times)
Guiseppi
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1500 - Sep 15th, 2013 at 6:07pm
 
Hoping the D-3 kicks in for ya soon...it's got me over 3 years pain free. Hang in there.

Joe
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1501 - Sep 16th, 2013 at 6:24pm
 
Hi!
Just some thoughts on my test result and progress with the vit regime.
I've been on it for 3 weeks now, finally got to take the test.
Started 26 aug and test was done 5 sept.
Result came back 130 nmol/l.

From getting hit 7-8 times a day it went down to a couple of hits per day after 48 hours. After a week 1-2 hits every other day. Week 3 just feeling shadows, but all the time.
This week very light shadows except night when they get worse so no good sleep.

Seems I got out of the intense part this episode much faster thanx to the regime. But maybe I could get rid of shadows by taking a larger dose? 130 nmol, it's a good result?
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1502 - Sep 16th, 2013 at 8:44pm
 
Franz wrote on Sep 16th, 2013 at 6:24pm:
130 nmol, it's a good result?

You're getting there. You'll want to be at 150 nmol/L at the very least. Probably closer to the 200 nmol/L to achieve lasting relief.

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1503 - Sep 16th, 2013 at 8:49pm
 
I'm wondering when I should have my D25 retested since I've upped my dose to 15,000? When I was on a maintenance dose of 5,000 D3 my levels were tested each year and measured 43ng. I did not have any cycles so I stayed on the 5,000. My 1st fall cycle ever started in August and I immediately increased my dose to 10,000 and then up to 15,000 on Sept 10.  I also take 400 mag citrate, 2,000 fish oil and 240 verapamil (twice a day).
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1504 - Sep 16th, 2013 at 11:06pm
 
Hey Franz,

130 nmol/L equals 52 ng/mL... (divide by 2.5 to convert nmol/L to ng/mL), so you're responding to the 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... but you're serum concentration of 25(OH)D is still below the therapeutic range of 60 to 110 ng/mL where most CH'ers have reported experiencing a lasting PF response to this regimen.

The fastest way to a pain free response is to do what other CH'ers have done... They bumped their vitamin D3 intake up to 25,000 IU/day and added a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week on top of the daily dose.  Doing this will help you reach the target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 80 to 85 ng/mL a lot faster.

If you'll check the 25(OH)D response curve for a 10,000 IU/day dose of vitamin D3 in the following chart you'll see a couple things.  Your 25(OH)D response is normal for three weeks at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3... and your starting serum concentration was likely South of (less than) 75 nmol/L, (30 ng/mL) which is considered vitamin D3 deficient.

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Try to see your PCP or neurologist to get another lab test for 25(OH)D as soon as you've been pain free for at least a week...  At that point you can drop your vitamin D3 intake to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day. 

As you can see from the chart above, a maintenance dose of 10,000 results in an average 25(OH)D response of 200 to 212 nmol/L, (80 to 85 ng/mL) after 4 to 6 months where the gain in 25(OH)D levels off.  As our bodies make vitamin D3 when exposed to the UV-B in sunlight... they have built-in mechanisms to regulate its production and metabolism...

The reason a 25(OH)D serum concentration around 80 to 85 is important is due to other vitamin D3 consumers... Our immune system is one of the largest consumers...  It can gobble up vitamin D3, [25(OH)D], rapidly.  Without supplementation, that can deplete 25(OH)D reserves below the therapeutic level for cluster headaches < 150 nmol/L, (60 ng/mL) in as little as a week to 10 days.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1505 - Sep 17th, 2013 at 8:02am
 
OK....I am unsure about what you call a normal level in the Vitamin D 25 OH....I am in Texas and my doctors  say above 40 and below 100 is good.  I was told 100 and above can be toxic....

Are talking about a different scale here? 

Love y'all
Karen
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1506 - Sep 17th, 2013 at 8:49am
 
Thanx for the guidance Batch and Brew!

I'll be sure to step it up some to get to the higher level faster. Looks like I'm spot on that diagram. That's just some good science I guess Smiley

My lab report suggested that the normal range ( for normal people I guess)is between 30-60ng/ml , just like some reference. So I'll guess they agree that higher levels isn't bad for you.

Take care out there!
/Franz
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1507 - Sep 17th, 2013 at 12:28pm
 
I started the D3 regimen at the end of my spring cycle, after I was tested at 39.  I loaded up and then eased at 15000IU after 2 weeks because my hits were still coming, but at much reduced pain level and easily managed with just a Rock Star or O2!  I need to get another test but, so far, the fall episode has not made an appearance.  I am usually hit at the beginning of September, starting with the 1am hit, then by now, a 5am and then a 1pm.  My hits usually last 2 hours without interventions.  I use O2, Rock Star, and imitrix injections (2 a day).  I am glad for this regimen as the preventatives were becoming non-existent for me without getting into lithium, which I did not want to do.  I can't begin to tell you how thrilled I am that I sleep through the night and enjoy the fall weather without pain.  I do take 15000IU of the D3; I am getting another test in the next few weeks.  My guess?  I am in the sweet range!  Phew!
Cheesy
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1508 - Sep 17th, 2013 at 12:55pm
 
godsjoy777 wrote on Sep 17th, 2013 at 8:02am:
OK....I am unsure about what you call a normal level in the Vitamin D 25 OH....I am in Texas and my doctors  say above 40 and below 100 is good.  I was told 100 and above can be toxic....

Are talking about a different scale here? 

Love y'all
Karen

"Normal" doesn't apply to CH'ers. And if your docs are telling you that 100 and above can be toxic, I'd either be looking for new docs or looking to reeducate the ones I have.

Obviously you don't want to overdo anything, but as far as I can tell, you could maintain a level of around 200ng/ml without going toxic. That's good because you only need to be between 60-110 ng/ml.

I've been swallowing 10,000iu/day for well over a year now, and the highest mine has ever been is 74ng/ml.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1509 - Sep 18th, 2013 at 1:05am
 
Brew's comments on vitamin D3 dosing, 25(OH)D serum concentrations and vitamin D3 toxicity are spot on!

A recent study titled Vitamin D Supplement Doses and Serum 25-Hydroxyvitamin
D in the Range Associated with Cancer Prevention
by Garland, French, Baggerly and Heayey concluded that: Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin D per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity.

VitaminDwiki has a number of excellent charts like the following on vitamin D3 dosing and loading doses to achieve a target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 50 to 70 ng/mL... 

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It's important to note that this 25(OH)D target range is for normal people... As CH'ers...  we're far from normal as Brew pointed out.

We suffer from a condition characterized by neurogenic inflammation... and so far, the data we've collected here at CH.com and from the online survey of CH'ers using the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 indicate we need an average target 25(OH)D serum concentration around 85 ng/mL ±10 ng/mL to remain pain free of cluster headaches.

It is also important to note that we are way out in front of conventional medical science dosing on vitamin D3 at 10,000 IU/day in order to maintain an average target 25(OH)D serum concentration of 85 ng/mL to prevent our cluster headaches. 

There are no other RCTs on this topic.  The best and only information on the safety and efficacy of the anti-inflammatory regimen with 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 is right here at CH.com.  So far since December of 2010... I'm unaware of any reports of adverse reactions to this regimen that required medical attention...  and the efficacy is holding steady at 80%.

I've done some recent reading on an RCT reporting the efficacy of verapamil as a prophylaxis for episodic cluster headache sufferers...  See attached pdf file for more info.

Verapamil reduced attack frequency and the use of abortive agents in episodic cluster headache

Design:  Randomised {allocation concealed*},† blinded {clinicians, patients, and outcome assessors*},† placebo controlled trial with 2 week follow up.

Setting:  3 outpatient clinics in Italy.

Patients: 30 adults between 18 and 60 years of age (mean age 44 y, 90% men) who were outpatients and had a diagnosis of episodic cluster headache (International Headache Society criteria) with > 1 previous cluster period lasting > 1 month and who had been in a cluster period for < 10 days and had an expected duration of the remainder of the cluster period of >20 days.

Exclusion criteria were liver or kidney disease, cardiopathological findings contraindicating verapamil use, psychiatric disorder, use of antidepressants or antipsychotics, drug or alcohol abuse, or previous adynamicileus. Follow up was 100%.

Intervention:  After a 5 day run in period, patients were allocated to verapamil, 120 mg 3 times/day (n = 15), or placebo, 3 times/day (n = 15), for 2 weeks.

Main outcome measures:  Self reported frequency of cluster headache attacks and use of abortive agents.

Main results:  During the first week of treatment, the verapamil and placebo groups did not differ for median numbers of attacks/day (1.1 v 1.7) or abortive agents used/day (1.0 v 1.2).

During the second week of treatment, verapamil was more effective than placebo in reducing both the number of attacks (median 0.6 v 1.65/d, p < 0.001) and the number of abortive agents used (median 0.5 v 1.2/d, p < 0.004). Fewer patients in the verapamil group than in the placebo group were non-responders (ie, having a < 50% reduction in attack frequency) {p < 0.001}.  Side effects experienced during the treatment period were mild.

Verapamil v placebo for prophylactic treatment of episodic cluster headache at 2 weeks

Outcome         Verapamil     Placebo     RRR     (95% CI)
Non-response       20%          100%      80%    (53 to 93) 1 (1 to 2)

Because this RCT was done to the gold standard: randomized, blinded, placebo controlled...  it carries more weight as medical evidence than our online survey of CH'ers.

Data from that survey indicate 80% of the 75 paticipating episodic CH'ers experienced a favorable response with a significant (>50) reduction in the frequency, severity and duration of their CH and 62% experienced a sustained pain free response.

Most of the CH'ers in this survey who experienced a favorable response experienced that response in first week.

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You can draw your own conclusions...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1510 - Sep 18th, 2013 at 2:05pm
 
Hi Batch,
I can't thank you enough.  Update.  Clusters for 15 years.  The past 5 years they've been 1 year on, 1 year off.  Last year I started my cycle in March, I started the D3 in June and they aborted in 2 weeks.  I got lazy with the D3 around December and stopped taking it.  I had my serum vitamin d tested in June and it was 17 (sounds low, low).  In July I started having shadows and immediately started my D3 at 15k/day.  A few days later I had a full blown cluster HA, and then a few shadows and then nothing.  I've essentially had 15 months pain free, including 9 months that should have been in cycle.  Very happy!!!
Don
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1511 - Sep 18th, 2013 at 3:38pm
 
Hey Don,

Thanks for the update...  Glad this regimen is working well for you.  I do a burndown test of my 25(OH)D reserves a couple times a year by intentionally stopping the anti-inflammatory regimen until I feel a CH coming...

It usually takes 7 to 10 days for my CH to return if I was dosing at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 prior to starting the burn-down test.

The bottom line...  as CH'ers... episodic or chronic... we need to stay on this regimen year-round if we want to remain pain free...

Take care and thanks again for the update.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1512 - Sep 19th, 2013 at 6:51am
 
Hi Batch... can you tell me more about this regime Or, tell me what page on the site is best to start out with. (D3 & fish oil).  Does it take a while before it sets into your system. 
I'm picking up the req today, to get my blood tested to find out my D level.
Last night was the worst night I've had in a while, took 6000/d3 & 3000 salmon oil.  I'm not doing well... its going on to long. Undecided
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1513 - Sep 19th, 2013 at 8:20am
 
sue_g wrote on Sep 19th, 2013 at 6:51am:
Hi Batch... can you tell me more about this regime Or, tell me what page on the site is best to start out with. (D3 & fish oil).  Does it take a while before it sets into your system. 
I'm picking up the req today, to get my blood tested to find out my D level.
Last night was the worst night I've had in a while, took 6000/d3 & 3000 salmon oil.  I'm not doing well... its going on to long. Undecided

Read this:

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1514 - Sep 19th, 2013 at 4:44pm
 
Thank you very much
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1515 - Sep 19th, 2013 at 6:36pm
 
Hey Sue,

Good on you for picking up the script for the 25(OH)D lab test...  Brew has given you the right link to find the complete list of supplements and suggested dosing used in the anti-inflammatory regimen.

As to how long it can take to respond to this regimen, see the following chart.  This is data harvested in July 2013 from our online survey of CH'ers using the anti-inflammatory regimen with at least 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

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As you can see, 80% of the CH'ers CH'ers who respond to this regimen did so in 14 days or less.  A few respond in less than 24 hours... then there are others that have taken up to two months.

It's interesting to note that the response rate is roughly the inverse of the 25(OH)D response to dose of vitamin D3 as shown below:

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Near as we can figure... the response time depends on the serum concentration of 25(OH)D at the start of therapy... It also depends on any competing processes that consume 25(OH)D and the active hormonal vitamin D3 metabolite 1,25(OH)2D3 (calcitriol). 

After calcium homeostasis - the process of maintaining an optimum serum calcium concentration and building bone mineral density, our immune system is the next largest consumer of vitamin D3 and it's metabolites.

A cold, the flu and even a sub-clinical allergic reaction (no detectable symptoms), can consume available 25(OH)D very rapidly leaving an insufficient concentration to prevent cluster headache.

You've made a wise choice by starting this regimen... Please feel free to ask questions.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1516 - Sep 20th, 2013 at 4:31pm
 
Hi Batch

I had my test done on Wednesday, then started with 6000iu, on Thursday to 8000iu and since 2pm yesterday only shadows up to half hour after falling asleep, but then the O2 worked at last again. Was woken by a strong shadow at 3am, but it never went over to a full blown one. Took 10 000iu this morning. Since then only shadows on and off, the times it normally happens.

My tests came back today, 22.4ng/mL, so I will try to keep it up, cause it is a bit tough on my stomach. I take Nexiam for my stomach, is that okay?

Thank so much, I couldn't go on anymore!!!!

hell-jee
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1517 - Sep 20th, 2013 at 10:42pm
 
Hey Hell-Jee,

Thanks for the update.  22 ng/mL is clearly vitamin D3 deficient...  Keep titrating up on the vitamin D3 to 25,000 IU/day by adding an additional 5,000 IU/day and be sure to take the Omega-3 Fish Oil and all the vitamin D3 cofactors.  When you get to 25,000 IU/day you can add a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week...  Stay on this dosing schedule for at least two weeks then you can drop the loading dose.

Given your response so far, you should be completely pain free in a few weeks. Be sure to see your PCP or neurologist to get the lab test for 25(OH)D again after a month on the accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule... 

Your target serum concentration of 25(OH)D should be 80 to 85 ng/mL.  Once you reach this serum concentration you can drop back to a maintenance dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3.  That should hold you there.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2013 at 10:43pm by Batch »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1518 - Sep 20th, 2013 at 11:10pm
 
Thanks Batch!

Last night was bad again, every hour!

I will do as you say.

Is the Nexiam okay ?

Thanks again!

hell-jee
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1519 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 12:31pm
 
Hi all -
I am researching the D3 regimen for my son who is an episodic CH sufferer for the past 4 years, but I am confused about the standard(original) products from Costco.  The calcium citrate with magnesium has only 80 mg of magnesium and it is from magnesium oxide whereas the recipe calls for other magnesium types.  If Centrum Silver is added then you get an additional 50mg of magnesium oxide.

This is only 130mg of magnesium not 400-500mg and magnesium oxide is not listed as a preferred magnesium.

Is the original recipe still valid?  Do I need to add a different magnesium?

I  have tried to read every posting about the D3 regimen, hundreds of posts, as it seems to be the best and healthiest solution for my son's CH.  He is very reluctant to try anything(red bull, O2 etc) so I want to be correct in what I have him try.

Thanks for all your info and advice
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1520 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 3:04pm
 
Hi,
I had this query too. Every supplement I looked at had something else in it. I shopped around on-line and managed to find exactly the right stuff. Try iHerb.com, ebay, and amazon for starters but there are many more. It means added shipping costs to most things but at least I know I'm doing it correctly.(You may even find free shipping on some).
I've been on it now for 53 days and have had some shadows up to kip3 but nothing worse. And I feel even if that's as good as it gets, well, it's good enough for me. I can feel it, and it hacks me off, but I can live with it. And it's Beats the hell out of the kip10's any day.
Hope you find what you want. Good luck.
Maz.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1521 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 3:50pm
 
Andy,

Good question...  The first thing to do is have your son see his PCP to discuss the anti-inflammatory regimen and schedule a lab test for 25(OH)D.  If that's going to take a while, most CH'ers start this regimen then get tested...

The basic regimen shown below works effectively for most CH'ers. 

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It's convenient as there are only three types of pills to take... two of each... 

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If there's no response after two weeks, even with an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule... more magnesium may be needed up to the RDA of 400 mg/day.

What we've learned over the last year is that vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin K2 (MK-4 and MK-7) are also important vitamin D3 cofactors.  I take a Centrum Silver tablet or a tablet of the Safeway brand Century Senior 50+ Formula. It has a similar formulation.

Bottom line...  If there's no response to this regimen even with an accelerated vitamin D3 dosing schedule... add more magnesium and Omega-3 Fish Oil.  Magnesium malate, magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate have a higher bioavailability than magnesium oxide.

It's also a good idea to get tested for 25(OH)D again after a month on this regimen.  That way you can adjust the vitamin D3 intake accordingly.

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1522 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:27pm
 
Thank you all so very much for your responses.
I have sent for the D3 test from the online resources I found here since my son does not have insurance.  We should have the results very soon after sending it in.
In the mean time he is starting on the 'beginning' dosage.  Thanks again.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1523 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:32pm
 
Thank YOU for supporting my cluster brother, most of us would be in a very very dark place without our supporters, he's lucky to have you doing the research! Wink

Joe
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #1524 - Sep 21st, 2013 at 4:48pm
 
Batch is the best person to answer the questions around the exact recipe.

Although I've found that following the approach without trying to be totally precise on the numbers works well as I've been CH pain free for over 1.5 years.

AndyC wrote on Sep 21st, 2013 at 12:31pm:
I  have tried to read every posting about the D3 regimen, hundreds of posts, as it seems to be the best and healthiest solution for my son's CH.  He is very reluctant to try anything(red bull, O2 etc) so I want to be correct in what I have him try.


The part I've put in bold is very significant.

CH is rare, most doctors are poorly educated in it and if you don't take charge of your own destiny by doing your own research and pushing for the right treatment then you are likely to be in for a whole lot of pain that you don't need to go through.

So the question is why is he reluctant to try anything? Change that and it should open the door to significant improvements.

Oxygen is one amazing way to abort CHs. It can be simply life changing in going from torture sessions lasting around an hour or so, to being able to abort it in a few minutes. I can abort mine in under 5 minutes using 25lpm and a non-rebreather mask. The first time I used it I was in tears knowing what a difference it would make to my life.

Read all about how we use it at Multimedia File Viewing and Clickable Links are available for Registered Members only!!  You need to Login or Register.

You're also doing a great job too by doing the research to try to make a difference. Having support like this is wonderful.
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