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123 Days PF And I Think I know Why (Read 445377 times)
Joshua
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #850 - Jul 9th, 2012 at 2:52pm
 
Have you actually gone OFF any prescription meds on this plan?  Apologies if it's in your previous posts.
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Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #851 - Jul 9th, 2012 at 2:59pm
 
Ian,

Welcome to the club...  Trying to convince folks to take some vitamin D3...  even 5,000 IU/day is a thankless task for too many...   It's amazing how many CH'ers apparently prefer to ignore the mounting evidence pointing to the health benefits of vitamin D3 and its capacity to prevent cluster headaches...

Fortunately there are folks like you and Joshua who said...  "Why not..." and have discovered the wonderful benefits of this supplement.  That makes it all worth while...

Take care and persevere... One "Holy Cow" or "Woo Hoo" out of ten tries is a better than average response...

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #852 - Jul 9th, 2012 at 8:42pm
 
Batch, It's been 9 days since I started the D3. In these days, I have had a few attacks. However, when I started the regimen I was in the middle of a 9 day non stop pain fest. I am one of those who experienced immediate relief. No, the attacks aren't gone, but they're WAY better. And this in only 9 days. I'm only sorry I didn't start sooner. Thanks for the info Brother. I'm in the process of building my own o2 system. I'll keep you posted.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #853 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 2:04am
 
Hello, I haven't posted in quite some time.  I'm normally pretty under control; I've been on Verapamil 180mg/2x day, with a Pred taper at the begining of a cycle, and Maxalt MLT as an abortive.  I normally don't have too many problems with this set-up, but on this deployment I have found myself completely out of Verapamil.

I read your post a few weeks ago, and I thought I'd give it a shot--I'm really down to my last hope at this point.  I just got my D3 and Fish Oil in the mail today, so this would be day 1 of the regimen. 

I don't know if anyone will be able to answer, but how long does it usually take to see the effects of this regimen?  I've been getting CH's about 4 times a day for the past couple of weeks, and they're pretty regular at this point.  I literally have to set my schedule around them right now, and I could really use a break.

Any help/advice would be deeply appreciated.  I'm just about at wits end with this cycle.
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Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #854 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 2:43am
 
Hey Diefaster,

Good question, and I know what you're going through.  You've taken the best course of action.

From the data we've collected over the last 20 months, the answer to your question is two weeks to a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen.  That assumes, without benefit of a lab test for your 25(OH)D serum concentration, that you're vitamin D3 deficient at around 20 ng/mL.

If this assumption is correct, two weeks is the average time to respond to this regimen.  However, some CH'ers respond in 12 to 24 hours while others respond in upwards of a month.  Again, it all depends on your starting serum level of 25(OH)D and the dose of vitamin D3 you take on a daily basis.

Try to get tested for 25(OH)D as soon as possible.  That way you'll have a better idea how long it will take to go pain free.

Give the complete regimen an opportunity to work at 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 for at least a week, then bump the vitamin D3 dose to 20,000 IU/day with a weekly loading dose of 50,000 IU once a week, but hold the other supplements at the standard dose.  Hold that dosing strategy for three weeks to a month to see what happens.

Take care and hand in there...  This regimen is 75% effective so the odds are you'll have a favorable response shortly.

Soberman, thanks for the update...  I suspect you'll be PF shortly.  Hang in there with this regimen and keep the faith...  The odds are in your favor.  Shoot me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the latest goodies on oxygen therapy at flow rates that support hyperventilation.

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #855 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 7:46pm
 
diefaster,

I can just add some personal experience as you await likely positive results with this regimen.

I was extremely desperate as well, and attempted this regimen in December 2011. In December, my 25(OH)D level was at 30 ng/ml. I started taking 10,000 iu daily, along with the recommended dosages of magnesium and calcium. For about 5 months, I didn't notice any improvement. Within that period, I had not attempted a weekly loading dose, nor had I checked my D3 level throughout the process.

Without giving up, I read Batch's posts religiously and with his feedback I continued his regimen. I went to an endocrinologist to check my 25 (OH)D level [along with a complete lab workup], and despite the fact that she refused to give me any D3 with a 25 (OH)D in excess of 30 ng/ml, I continued the regimen until I found myself pain free as of June 2012.

In June, I had another lab test after communicating with Batch, and learned that I was at 114 ng/ml. [While a typical human may not be D3 deficient with a 25 (OH)D level of 30 ng/ml, it has been suggested by Batch and others who have found success with this regimen, that we should be above 60 ng/ml at minimum].

Coincedence that I've been pain free since?

Good luck and hope you stick with it!

-Evan
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #856 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 8:52pm
 
Quote:
...she refused to give me any D3 with a 25 (OH)D in excess of 30 ng/ml...

Wow. She sounds like a real rocket scientist.

A rocket scientist with an open mind.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #857 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 10:55am
 
diefaster,

Just to add my own experience w/ D3 to the mix, I also had a pretty regular CH schedule going when I started the D3 regimen. That schedule was thrown off the first few days...I did begin to experience some relief after about 3 days.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #858 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 4:37pm
 
"Wow. She sounds like a real rocket scientist."

In her opinion, it would be "irresponsible" of her to give me D3 as I wasn't considered deficient. It's scary that without reading posts on this site, I would've taken her word for it.

I've met a few other rocket scientists these past couple of years.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #859 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 5:01pm
 
Hello All,

This site is great, I have learned so much, thank you everyone for your posts!!  I am new here and have been reading lots of posts and decided to register.  I have been getting CH for 3 years.  I was put on Verapromil and Pretnizone.

I have a question about the D3, Fish Oil and Calcium.  I like the idea of a natural way to treat this.  So, I need to take 10,000 IU of D3, 2,000 mg of omega 3 fish oil and 500 mg of calcium citrate.  Is that all I need to take?  What's the deal with the magnesium, vitamin K2, Vitamin A, Zinc and Boron?  Do I need to take them a s well?

My neuro said I have CL and put me on Verapramil and the Pretnizone tapper off thing and it worked but I want to try this natural way.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #860 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 8:17pm
 
Hello again....I made a typo in my last post, meant to write my neuro diagnosed me with CH not CL.

Thanks again for all the info on CH it's nice to know there is a place like this.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #861 - Jul 11th, 2012 at 8:56pm
 
Sorry for my delay in response. I will have been totally pain free for exactly 4 weeks, one month, tomorrow.

Since I began the regime, I had some success slowly working my way up to 20,000 IU's per day with co-factors. I started too low and wasted too much time at low level doseage. Once I hit 20,000 IU's per day, I noticed a reduction in frequency and pain level.

I then read the 50,000 IU loading dose once a week and 20,000 the rest of the week. Bingo... Four weeks ago they ended.

My wife and I have discussed this at length and we both have come to the conclusion it is a direct result of the D-3 and co-factors.

I will level with you, in the early stages of the regime, I started with 5,000 IU's per day, with negligible results.

Once I got up to 20,000 IU's in conjuction with the co-factors I noticed an appreciable change in the frequency and level of pain.

I also took some liberty with the co-factors lowering and at one point discontinuation of one at a time and found the same results, increase in frequency and intensity but not as intense as just altering the D-3 intake and leaving the co-factors the same.

I admit, I have not had my blood levels checked, nor did I write down each time I changed something in the regime. I wish now that I had charted this and lament the fact I did not. I do know it made a difference and this can be attested to by my wife.

When I took the co-factors, the 50,000 IU loading dose and 20,000 IU's the rest of the week, the cycle stopped.

I will soon be dropping back to 10,000 IU's per day with the co-factors and see if I get any change.

Notes: I still can't drink a beer, it does not bring on a full blown attack, but it will let me know it's there. The aforementioned fact, tells me that I am still in cycle, just not experiencing the effects.

I'll be going to my GP soon for a check up, unrelated to CH, and will ask him if he can schedule the blood work, as I personally would like to know the current levels.

Again, I apologize... one for rambling and two for not having charted this more accurately, but life gets in the way... best laid plans etc.  Embarrassed

In roughly 20 years of being episodic, this is the shortest and least painful cycle I've ever had. Direct result of the D-3 or morphing of the Beast? Due to the changes in the cycle when I altered the co-factors and D-3 intake, I'll have to put my money on the D-3.

Hardly scientific, but I could not be more pleased with the results. I'm glad I played around with the dosage as it allowed me to experiment and see for myself if it made a difference.

NO, I repeat...NO side effects whatsoever. My wife and I counted over 14+ script meds. not counting natural remedies tried over the past 20 years. NOTHING has worked as quickly or with less side effects. I count this experience as a HUGE win.

Years ago, the Oxygen and now this... THANK YOU BATCH!!! Smiley Should I ever be of assistance, I am at your service sir.

All the best,

Baer
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« Last Edit: Jul 14th, 2012 at 9:13pm by B.Baer »  
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #862 - Jul 12th, 2012 at 12:25pm
 
I posted a bit over a month ago that I was in the midst of a rotten cycle.  My cycles are on/off longer than most....nearly a year.  I began the regimen at 20k/day and only in the past few days lowered to 15k/day.  My HA's began to taper after about 2 weeks and for the past 2 weeks I've gotten approximately 1 HA every 2 days.  The HA's are mild and knocked out with the first dose of oxygen. 
I have not gotten my bloodwork done, so I don't think I'm eligible to fill out the survey.
I am absolutely a believer in this D3 regimen.  Finally a solution to making these cycles more bearable.  Thank you Batch!
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Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #863 - Jul 12th, 2012 at 8:06pm
 
DVB, Evan O, B.Baer, DH,

Thank you all for the wonderful updates, feedback and testimony to the effectiveness of the anti-inflammatory regimen as a CH preventative.  It's comments like yours that provide an incentive to so many undecided CH'ers to give this regimen a try.

It's significant to note that the raw efficacy of this regimen is on the climb and is now pushing 80% since more CH'ers started using the vitamin D3 dosing strategy of 20,000 IU/day with a 50,000 IU loading dose once a week discussed in some of my earlier posts.

Seth, the short answer to your question is yes, the cofactors including: magnesium, zinc, boron, vitamin K2 and vitamin A are all essential parts of this regimen.  They aid in the metabolism of vitamin D3 to 25(OH)D3 and on to its active metabolite, 1,25(OH)2D3 that appears to be responsible for preventing our CH.

You can find a good explanation of the vitamin D3 cofactors at the following link:

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You'll see after reading this link that most of the cofactors are available in a well balanced diet...  The problem is, we don't always eat a well balanced diet... so it's best to play the odds in your favor and take the cofactors.

Vitamin A is a late comer to this regimen.  Watch the video of Dr. Robert Heaney, M.D. give a fascinating and compelling presentation titled "Vitamin D: Nutrient, Not a Drug" at the following link.   He explains how and why vitamin A has become another essential part of this regimen:

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Dr. Heaney also brings up the point that there have been over 31 Level A rated RCTs with strong Evidence-based medicine (EBM), dealing with the benefits of vitamin D3 therapy.  True, none of these RCTs were focused on cluster headache, but I think we're providing ample empirical proof of vitamin D3's efficacy as a cluster headache preventative. 

Moreover, we're proving that vitamin D3 doses of 20,000 IU/day are very safe.  There is also ample evidence this regimen can be safely started while also taking physician prescribed cluster headache preventatives like verapamil.

That said... we're still finding too many primary care physicians and neurologists who get their knickers in a wad over sustained doses of vitamin D3 at 10,000 to 20,000 IU/day and serum concentrations 25(OH)D over 30 ng/mL.

For the CH'ers new to this regimen or wanting to start it...  be prepared for push-back from your PCP or neurologist...  Print out the attached study by Garland et al, take it along to your next appointment, and be prepared to discuss it in detail if you do get any push-back.

Please don't be afraid to challenge your PCP or neurologist on this topic... We CH'ers will all come across a PCP or neurologist who needs educating on our disorder and how best to treat it. 

Unfortunately, when it comes to continuing medical education (CME), a requirement to maintain a license to practice medicine in most states, CME on the benefits of vitamin D3 screening and therapy are limited to courses provided by the American Society for Nutrition, CME Program.

Moreover, as most neurologist would sooner attend a Gucci level course of CME on exotic medications proposed as treatments our disorder or the latest studies on the pathophysiology of cluster headaches rather than take a course on the mundane topic of the role of vitamin D3 and nutrition as taught in the American Society for Nutrition, CME Program, it's no wonder most of them are clueless on the topic of vitamin D3.  Most will look at you like you're speaking in tongues when you ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D. 

Accordingly, one of the best charts from the attached study is shown below where over 3,600 people voluntarily took vitamin D3 at various doses and then paid $65 after six months to have their serum concentrations of 25(OH)D measured:

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There are two important things to take away from this chart.  The first is doses of vitamin D3 up to and including 40,000 IU/day do not result in 25(OH)D concentrations high enough to reach the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL.

The second take away is the wide variation in 25(OH)D responses at a given dose of vitamin D3.  As this chart also contains lab test results measured after six months and a year at a given dose, I called the folks at GrassrootsHealth and spoke with one of their MPH statisticians.

She sent the following information on the second lab tests for 25(OH)D, a year after starting a dose of 10,000 IU/day.  25(OH)D concentrations in ng/mL.

             mean      median   min   max    sd
test 2      71          69           20    134    23 

If you use the the 95% confidence band (mean ± 2 X sd, or ±46), these responses fall in a range of 25 to 117 ng/mL.  This is consistent with the data collected in the anti-inflammatory regimen survey.

What this also tells us is a dose of 10,000 IU/day vitamin D3 may not be sufficient for some CH'ers to elevate their serum 25(OH)D into the "green zone" 60 to 110 ng/mL where most CH'ers have gone pain free on this regimen.

If you look at the horizontal line I drew on this chart from 60 ng/mL to where it intersects the lower boundary of the 95% confidence band, you'll see it comes down at a vitamin D3 dose of 20,000 IU/day. 

This indicates 95% of CH'ers who take 20,000 IU/day will have serum concentrations of 25(OH)D in a range of 60 ng/mL up to 125 ng/mL and still not reach the lower threshold for vitamin D3 intoxication at 200 ng/mL

Finally, the investigators of this study concluded that: "Universal intake of up to 40,000 IU vitamin D3 per day is unlikely to result in vitamin D toxicity."

So here are the bottom line conclusions you need to be ready to explain to a doubting PCP or neurologist when you ask for the lab test for 25(OH)D...

1.  The odds are high (better than 75%) of a favorable response to the anti-inflammatory regimen with a significant reduction in the frequency and severity of your CH or going pain free like better than 66% of the CH'ers taking this regimen.

2.  There have been no reports of vitamin D3 toxicity in the 18 months since over 200 CH'ers started this regimen at 10,000 to 20,000 IU/day vitamin D3.

3.  This regimen works for both episodic and chronic CH'ers with an average response time of two weeks, min = 12 hours, max = 1 month.

4.  This regimen can be safely taken with existing standards of care prescription medications for cluster headache.

5.  And finally, at less than 30 cents a day USD, this is the most cost effective cluster headache preventative available to us...

If your PCP or neurologist persists and continues to push back...  ask him or her to please 'splain verapamil side effects and efficacy so you can compare and contrast them with the anti-inflammatory regimen...

Take care and thanks again for the wonderful comments.

V/R, Batch

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #864 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 7:27am
 
Update.
Am totally off the prednisone.
Have gone back to having 1 headache in the a.m. and 1 in the p.m.
Am on the D3 regimen at 20,000/iu per day. 
.
Question - based on the previous post- should I INCREASE the daily dose?
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #865 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 12:58pm
 
Hey Joshua,

You had to come off prednisone anyway...  Are the am and pm hits manageable with oxygen or are they hitting at work or in transit?

The short answer is yes...  I'd give 25,000 IU/day a try for a few days to see what happens then drop back to 20,000 IU/day. 

20,000 IU/day should be sufficient to elevate your 25(OH)D into the green zone (60-110 ng/mL).  However, without results from a 25(OH)D lab test, you're shooting in the dark.

Are you still taking the weekly 50,000 IU loading dose and all the cofactors?   How much magnesium are you taking?

Take care and please keep us posted.

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2012 at 12:58pm by Batch »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #866 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 1:02pm
 
I am still doing the 50k loading dose.  Haven't been around o2 when the hits come.  a.m. hit at work.  p.m. hit at home, no 02 yet, it's on the way.
.
I take 500mg of Mg.
I take 2000 mg of Omega
Sometimes I take a multi vitamin, need to get more regular with it.
.
I will go up to 25 or 30k/iu for now.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #867 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 1:16pm
 
Hey Joshua,

Sounds like a plan...  (SLAP).  Oxygen will make a big difference...  Do try to get the lab test for 25(OH)D.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #868 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 1:24pm
 
yeah, i ran out of o2, new M tank on the way.  For some reason NY state won't allow any delivery of the home kit, so have to get to the dr.  doing that next week probably.
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #869 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 10:47pm
 
Hi everyone

I have been checking this site for quite some time now and have decided to start this regimen. I got most of the vitamins today and just need to get the k2, boron, and vit a. I've had CH for 4 years now and feel like ive tried every med possible. hopefully this works for me soon because im in a horrible cycle. I also have a dr appt on wed to get a ppd shot but im gonna see if he will run my blood levels for me also. it gives me hope to read how a lot of people are doing so well with this.

just to make sure i have the right amounts tho:

500mg of Mg
120mcg of K2
10 mg of Zinc
1mg of Boron
900mcg or 3000 IU of Vit A
2000mg of Fish Oil
500mg of Calcium Citrate

and i start with 20,000 IU of D3 a day with a loading dose of 50,000 once a week

Thanks for the post and everything!
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #870 - Jul 13th, 2012 at 11:24pm
 
Hey Kingaroo,

Sounds like you're off to a good start.  The only thing I would add is try to get the lab test for 25(OH)D.  Where do you live?

Please keep us posted.

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2012 at 11:25pm by Batch »  

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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #871 - Jul 14th, 2012 at 8:51am
 
I'm in Northfield, NJ. It's just outside of Atlantic City
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #872 - Jul 14th, 2012 at 1:31pm
 
Batch,

You may have touched on this already, but as you've said the cofactors Vitamin K, magnesium, A, etc have been incorporated to aid in the abitility to metabolize d3 properly.

Are there any known factors (hormones, nutrients, vitamins etc) that have the opposite effect?  Anything in the CH sufferer's diet or daily routine that may have brought about the inability to metabolize D3 at a normal rate?

It's clear that a D3 deficiency can be caused by something as simple by not getting enough sun, but I'm interested to know if our need to be in the therapeutic range of at least 60 ng/ml, [almost double the concentration of the average human] is a result of negative ingestion or just bad luck.

Hope all is well,
Evan
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #873 - Jul 14th, 2012 at 2:59pm
 
Evan,

Good question.  The short answer is we just don't know how many other factors impede or perturb vitamin D3 metabolism to the extent it becomes ineffective as a CH preventative.

So far the anti-inflammatory regimen appears to work very well without too much interference from other medications, minerals or other vitamins taken at normal levels. 

That said, prednisone may limit vitamin D3 effectiveness to some extent, but there are no studies indicating just how much.

The first phase of vitamin D3 metabolism from vitamin D3, (cholecalciferol) to 25(OH)D3 (calcidiol), takes place in the liver.  If serum concentration of 25(OH)D rises with supplemental vitamin D3 in the doses we take, it's likely the liver is functioning properly.

The second phase of vitamin D3 metabolism from calcidiol to 1,25(OH)2D3, (calcitriol), takes place in the kidneys.  Unfortunately, there's no easy way to determine how effectively the kidneys are metabolizing calcidiol into calcitriol except in overall response like a reduction in the frequency and severity of CH or going pain free.

There are tests like a 24-hour urine collection that check for creatinine clearance that will give a good indication of kidney health.  The creatinine clearance test compares the level of creatinine in urine with the creatinine level in the blood.

Compounding things a little further, it's the 1,25(OH)2D3 that pushes calcium into the blood stream.  If there's insufficient calcium in the gut, 1,25(OH)2D3 pulls it from the bones...  another reason to take at least 500 mg/day calcium with this regimen.

All this is controlled by calcium homeostasis, one of the most powerful regulating mechanisms in the body that maintains serum calcium in a very narrow range.

If the serum calcium concentration is at the upper limit of the normal range, this signals the parathyroids to stop or slow the production of the parathyroid hormone (PTH).  When PTH drops, that signals the kidneys to stop making 1,25,(OH)2D3 and start making 24,25(OH)2D3, an inactive metabolite that's pumped over the side in urine.

If serum calcium is at the low level limit of the normal range, this signals the parathyroids to produce more PTH and that signals the kidneys to make more calcitriol to push more calcium into the blood.

The wild card is the autocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism where 25(OH)D3 is metabolized outside the kidneys in body's many different types of cells like our brain and nerve cells.  This is where vitamin A (retinol) comes into play as this mode of vitamin D3 metabolism can't take place unless serum 25(OH)D is high enough and vitamin A is present.

When this happens, 1,25(OH)2D3 enters the cell, triggers a genetic response, where the cell produces what it needs to fix itself.

At this point we don't know which mode of vitamin D3 metabolism is responsible for preventing CH...  I suspect it's a combination of serum concentrations of vitamin D3, 25(OH)D3, 1,25(OH)2D3 and the autocrine mode of vitamin D3 metabolism that takes place in the cells.

Determining the exact cause or causes of an effective response to prevent CH will take detailed RCTs costing several million dollars each...

In the mean time, if a CH'er is having problems controlling CH with the anti-inflammatory regimen and 25(OH)D levels are 60 to 110 ng/mL, the best course of action is to see an endocrinologist for a complete workup.  This will include lab tests for calcium, PTH and related hormones. 

I'm not a doctor so finding a physician trained to recognize proper liver, kidney, thyroid and parathyroid functions is essential.  That's generally an endocrinologist... not a neurologist.

Confusing at best, but I hope this helps...

Take care,

V/R, Batch
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Re: 123 Days PF And I Think I know Why
Reply #874 - Jul 14th, 2012 at 9:02pm
 
Went to Wal-Mart and grabbed some vitamin D3 tablets today.  I was going to skip out on the rest of the vitamins suggested, but I see they play an important part; so, going to go grab some of those too.  I am not in cycle yet but am do for one before winter and will start this regimen right away to see what happens. 

One question...  Do any of you taking this regimen have rheumatoid arthritis or any other form of arthritis?  Seeing that it is an anti-inflammatory regimen, I was wondering if this helps with the pain.  I was reading that rheumatoid arthritis could be linked with low vitamin D3 levels but wanted some input from someone with firsthand knowledge.  My father has it, and he refuses to see doctors or take prescription medications.  My younger brother also has it, and if this helps, I will tell them about it.
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