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Mark C
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Alternative Therapy
« on: Oct 24th, 2003, 5:44pm »
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After researching the prospect of using mushrooms to help control my CH I finally gathered the courage to try it the other night. I had pretty high hopes from all of the reading I have done on the various sites concering shroom use. I wish I had a positive review but at this stage all I can report is the following.
 
Using a well known receipe for tea I made my batch and dosed accordingly. I had no undesriable effects from the dose, just a slightly hightend sense of color, as a matter of fact I was able to go to sleep an hour or so after dosing.
 
About two hours into my sleep I was awakened with a monster...about a K-9......rough. I rarely vomit during an attack but this time I did. I do not think the shrooms had anything to do with that because the night before was so intense I vomited then too and was not dosing. Hell, maybe I just had a touch of stomach flu. It may also be a reaction to all of the meds I have been taking because of the sinus surgery. Took a shot of Trex to survive that one. Finally settled back down and went back to sleep, it was about 4 am by then.
 
The next day someting really strange happened, I got hit that afternoon, but on the OTHER ( left) side. Never in 27 years has an attack changed sides in cycle. I have had cycles on on side, usually the right, but also on the left a few times.....but never both in the same cycle.
 
I am not giving up on this therapy yet.....I will give it several days and try a dose again.....I still hope for some relief....I am getting hit 3-5 times a day right now.
 
I thought I would throw that out and see what yall have to say, if anything about this turn of events.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #1 on: Oct 24th, 2003, 10:19pm »
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Mark, all of that sounds strange to me, not a typical reaction at all. Who knows what might happen in any given circumstance. Who knows if you got the right stuff?
 
??????
 
If ya read the site! (clusterbusters.com) and follow the directions, you shoudn't have these problems, but we all know that anything is possible, even relief from clusterhache if your lucky.
 
Sorry you had such weird experience, Lee.  
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #2 on: Oct 24th, 2003, 10:39pm »
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Mark,
Just a couple things...
Had you detoxed off any medications you'd been on? Were/are you still on anything? Some will block, some may enhance, some will not effect the efficacy.
 
Using the trex the next day most likely, based upon our gathered information, may very well have been the reason you had less than hoped for success.
 
You may need to up the dose slightly, although I wouldn't up the dose until some questions are answered. The fact that you were able to go to sleep so soon after dosing leads me to believe that you either, didn't take a large enough dose, the dose was blocked by other meds in your system, or the "materials" had deteriorated either from age, exposure to heat or oxygen, or during the brewing process.
 
If you'd like to write to discuss this further, please feel free.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #3 on: Oct 24th, 2003, 10:39pm »
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Just thought I'd add my 2 cents (Nothing bout shrooms)
First 12 years...ALWAYS right sided CH's...the last 3 years (chronic now)...Alternating attacks. Mostly left sided, but I can have an attack on the left and then 6 hours later, and attack on the right. Sad
CH does suck !!
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #4 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 8:11am »
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Mark -  
 
There are many reports of attacks hitting soon after dosing with shrooms. It's as if the treatment disrupts and aggravates the beast before sending him packing. Many see odd effects such as a change in schedule, attacks that hit then fizzle, pain-free attacks, etc. in the first days after shrooming.  
 
Like PinkFloyd  says, Imitrex does seem to interfere with the treatment, even when taken after shrooming.  
 
If you can, hang in there, avoid the trex and try another shroom dose in a few days. My own opinion would be to use the same-sized dose again. Try your favorite non-med abortives to cope 'til then: high-flow O2 thru non-rebreather mask, water, heat, cold, exercise, etc.  Easy for out-of-cycle me to say, eh?
 
Thanks for the report and keep us posted, whatever happens.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #5 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 11:58am »
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Mark --
 
Tommy is right. The reaction you describe is a GOOD sign. The psilocybin is having a disruptive effect on the normal pattern of your CH.  
 
Quite a few people have described phenomena similar to what you experienced. It is not uncommon for the first 24 to 48 hours after the initial dose to be a period of unusual CH -- occasionally (unfortunately) even stronger or more frequent than usual, and I know we have had a report from at least one other experimenter about the CH switching sides temporarily after a dose. My most recent experience in July was similar -- twelve hours after dosing I got hit with the strongest CH I had experienced in over a year, and for the next few days I was having many more shadows and precursor symptoms than I had experienced before the dose. I was fully prepared to take a second dose, but each day after that the symptoms lessened until ten days later it was as if I had never had a CH in my life. In your case, however, you may still require further doses -- I was at the very beginning of a new cycle when I did this, so a single dose was all it took. Also, my dose produced a "Level 2" experience -- noticeably stronger than the psychoactive effects you describe. If you are in the middle of a cycle you will almost certainly require more than one very weak dose.
 
The point to focus on is that the dose had a very noticeable effect on The Beast. What would have been more worrisome is if there had been no change whatsoever.
 
Tommy is also correct in thinking the first dose was too small. From your description, it was barely a "Level 1" experience. What you need is to take enough to reach a solid "Level 2" next time. This does NOT necessarily mean doubling the amount of mushrooms you took -- it is not a linear relationship -- instead increase the dosage by 50%.
 
His advice to stay away from the imitrex for AT LEAST 24 hours after dosing (48 hours would be better) is also good advice. The idea is to let your brain settle into a "post-psilocybin" state rather than just the standard "post-imitrex" state.
 
In my opinion, the results of your first dose, while not as beneficial as they might have been, are VERY encouraging. It is definitely correct to try a second dose 4 or 5 days after the first  -- just increase this dose by 50% if it is from the same batch of mushrooms.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #6 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 7:55pm »
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Thank you all for the replys,
I considered many of the points you all bring up, such as my Trex use. I wish I had been able to de-tox from the Trex but I am in the middle of cycle, another negative. I been getting hammered 3 to 5 times a day for the last month or so....however.....today I have only shadowed, and not too heavy at that. If I go another 3 or 4 hours it will be the first 24 hour PF time this month. Sounds like progress to me.  
 
Having done a sizeable amount of Hallucinogenic's in my earlier days I can say I hit the level 5 in the past recreationally....a long time ago. I am pretty confident I came close to the correct dose. I did not mean to imply I had no effect, on the contrary is was a nice old comfortable feeling. I was about a 1.5 to a 2 on the Erowid scale.  
 
My dose was about 2.5 grams and I will repeat the same dose in about 5 days after the initial dose.
 
Thanks for the info guys....I will try my best to stay off the Triptans before the next dose cause I finally got some O2.....more will be revealed.
 
PS- A spoon full of Tang at the end and I killed the whole thing in about 15 seconds...try it!
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #7 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 9:24pm »
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whooo hoooo Mark,
Sounds promising!!!
 
Umm, just curious, what does this mean?
 
Quote:
PS- A spoon full of Tang at the end and I killed the whole thing in about 15 seconds...try it!  

 
Thanks for the updates and reports Smiley
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #8 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 9:37pm »
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I used PinkSharkMark's recipie....he uses instant coffee as a flavoring agent and to add some caffiene to the mix to speed  up absorbstion. I just threw in a spoonfull of Tang right before drinking it ( I hope you don't mind PSM  Grin) and it was not bad tasting at all.....I killed it right away. My understanding was to get the dose in the bloodstream as soon as possible. I figured 10 or 12 seconds was better than 10 or 12 minutes.
 
Still PF.....all day.....hmmmmmmmm! Shadows have even just about gone.......hmmmmm  Grin
 
I may be on to something! I cant wait to get the oxygen flowing, I would love to stop needing so much Triptans.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #9 on: Oct 25th, 2003, 11:04pm »
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OHHHHH you meant killed a headache, OK!  LOL
Didn't know you dosed in the midst of a headache.  Thanks for clearing that up Smiley
 
Wishing you the BEST of luck Mark!!
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #10 on: Oct 26th, 2003, 1:39am »
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on Oct 25th, 2003, 9:37pm, Mark C wrote:
Still PF.....all day.....hmmmmmmmm! Shadows have even just about gone.......hmmmmm Grin

 
Very encouraging news indeed!  
 
I know exactly what you mean about reaching for the imitrex, though -- it's incredibly difficult not to grab for something that you know will work in the hopes that something untried might work better without it.  
 
I have been doing a lot of reading lately on one of the "recreational" mushroom boards about tolerance, and I believe I may modify my stance on the "5 days between doses" rule of thumb. It seems that for many -- even most -- people it is possible to dose as soon as three or even two days after an initial dose and still achieve nearly the same psychoactive effect from an equal dose -- if and only if it has been several months since any hallucinogens have been done. Some recreational users report that they can repeat this three or even four times before they have to start stretching out the "down time" to a week or even more (or massively increasing the dose, which is risky and not recommended).
 
I mention this because I believe it may make more sense to do another dose if you get hit again in the next day or two rather than reach for the imitrex. If you achieve no psychoactive effect, you will then know that you are one of the people who must wait 4 or more days between doses, but it just might buy you another 24 to 48 hours painfree time.
 
This strategy will work best if you have enough on hand that it is not a serious setback to have "wasted" 2 or 3 grams. If your supply is limited, best to wait 4 days just in case. Of course, if you continue to get nothing but shadows for the next 4 days, hold off on the second dose.  
 
My other advice (though I know Flash will disagree with me) is to "tweak" that next dose upwards a bit. If it is the same batch of shrooms, go for 3.0 grams this time -- both to adjust for "tolerance" and to get closer to the solid Level 2 experience. From my own personal experience and reports from others I believe a Level 2 or maybe even Level 2.5 is best for breaking a well-established cycle, and as you are an experienced psychedelic voyageur (even if it was in your wild and crazy youth), it doesn't seem that a Level 2 ride holds any terrors for you.
 
I do agree with Flash that doses as high as Level 2.5 seem not be required if taken right at the beginning of a cycle, before The Beast has dug himself in.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #11 on: Oct 27th, 2003, 2:56am »
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Day two plus and not even shadows today.....48 hours PF, from one dose! Holy cow, it works! I intend on another dose at or slightly greater within the next 48 hours to see if the remission holds but for now I am really impressed. It is much easier to stop the triptans when I ain't hurting. Never in 27 years has anything affected my cycle, in mid cycle, like this. I bet if I would have started before the cycle had such a good foothold I may have even skipped this cycle entirely..... and that has only happened once in 27 years.
 
PF and not even shadows in the middle of a cycle....what is this world coming to!  Grin
 
A great big thank you to Clusterbusters, Erowid, PinkSharkMark, PinkFloyd and Flash. I have read just about ever word you guys have written on the subject and the results are nothing short of amazing, at least for now.
 
I will keep you informed as to how the therapy progresses.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #12 on: Oct 27th, 2003, 11:09am »
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The first time I was administered psilocybin, the pain was as intense as a cluster.  It HURT.  But then it stopped.  It's been almost two months since I got above a K5.  and it's almost HALLOWEEN!  I should be on the floor rolling and moaning.
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #13 on: Oct 27th, 2003, 12:13pm »
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Holy Cow. indeed! Hope things continue to improve Mark. You may be tempted to change your icon soon!
 
Happy to hear you're still PF Vig...
 
Holy Fungus Batman!!
 
PF
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #14 on: Oct 27th, 2003, 2:09pm »
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Going to sleep is a symptom of the mildest hallucinogenic effect.  I get this also when I get the dose right.  I find that between episodes this level of dose works perfectly.  During an episode I find it takes  2 goes 5 days apart and even then things are likely to get A LOT worse before they SUDDENLY cease.
 
So bottom line is yes, it sounds like you took the right shrooms (please take note fellow Cluster Busters).  It also sounds like they are having an effect on the episode.
 
Now here's the rub...  this piddly little 2.5g of dried shrooms contained only a few mcgs of psilocybin.  Even if the episode were to resume at this point, NOTHING else will ever have an effect like that from a single tiny dose.  NOTHING.  This means that even if the episode were to resume, then continue with the shrooms and you have a very good chance of killing it, or at least minimising it to the point where it becomes an irrelevance.  WORST CASE SCENARIO this means a mild weekly dose.  Pinky is right that I disagree about increasing the dose.  In my opinion it is easier to live with ongoing weekly doses if there are very mild.  We've seen people take big weekly doses to no apparent advantage over the milder dose.
 
But please try and detox at all costs.  Your system needs to settle down (another reason to keep the doses low - even a low dose is a fair old shock compared to an aspirin!).  You must avoid the trex!  The only thing you can risk with shrooms is O2.
 
In my opinion things will now proceed thus:
 
A) The episode may remain terminated.
 
OR
 
B) The episode might reconvene in the near future.
 
If B) happens then another dose will probably dispatch it.  Although you might endure a max of 5 days of hell immediately afterwards Sad  This has happened to me on 2 occasions.  However I'd settle for 5 days over a month.  The bad news is those 5 days are the peak ones!
 
For future reference it is much easier to avoid the episode in the first place and the success rate (unbelievably) is even better.  So assuming you've broke it then take another mild dose every 3 months.  Once you've skipped a couple of episodes you can reduce the frequency to biannually, and evetually annually like me.
 
A word of warning - the CH doesn't go away.  If you cease the maitenance doses the fucker will eventually come back for more, and because you'll have forgotten what it feel like, it'll hurt like a bastard.  So best advice is keep taking the maintenace doses.  In other words do as I say, not as I do.  Don't wait for the shadows to start, even then it's much harder to kill, and usually gives you a good weeks worth of reminder.
 
Hope this advice is useful.
 
 
Flash  
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #15 on: Oct 29th, 2003, 8:49pm »
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It is working! PF for several days now. Dosed again Monday....quite a bit more, maybe 3.5 grams and hit a level 2.5 or maybe a 3. Still not an un-pleasant experience, brought back old memories  Cool. Back to the CH....I upped the dosage at the same time and I had no Triptans for several days before.  I figured since I was in the middle of a cycle it may take a bigger hit to stop the cycle, and it seems to have worked. It appears this cycle is stopped.  The only HA I had was the next day and it felt like a good old fashioned hangover. Still no Triptans and O2 should be avaliable by the end of the week, I hope.
 
I wonder now about the next dose.....when and what symptoms, if any, should I wait for...another hit or just shadows or just a maintence dose for good measure....what say you folks.
 
I am so grateful for all of the help from you all....this is nothing short of amazing. I have had CH for 27 years and NOTHING has ever stopped a cycle dead in it's tracks before.....far out!  bow
 
Enjoying a PF day, thanks to CH.com and you people. Never have I been so prepared for an attack both medically and mentally....my attitude has been completely different this year.....I am actually winning some of the fight...FUCKENEH!!
 
I know this ain't for everyone, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face if you know what I mean. I have always said I would piss on a sparkplug if it would help...I am glad it did'nt get that far!  
 
Living life a little, PF!
Mark
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #16 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 3:37am »
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on Oct 29th, 2003, 8:49pm, Mark C wrote:
I wonder now about the next dose.....when and what symptoms, if any, should I wait for...another hit or just shadows or just a maintence dose for good measure....what say you folks.
 
Mark

 
I think the prevailing wisdom is to not dose again, at this point. Let the receptors settle back into the state in which they now reside, where they should be. Let your body and mind begin the healing process from the beating the clusters dealt.
The next day, hangover headache is common, BTW.
I myself wouldn't consider dosing again this soon unless shadows started increasing in frequency, duration or intensity.
 
I'm very happy for you Mark. I hope things continue as well for you.  
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #17 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 3:45am »
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Mark - sit tight for at least 5-7 days and see what happens after that.  Only take another dose if things are getting worse after that time.  I fear that over doing it can actually make things go the other way.
 
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #18 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 10:02am »
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I started stretching out the doses too, also found that the doses could be SMALLER as well.
 
Very cool Mark
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #19 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 10:29am »
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I am all ears (PF ears!)......thanks guys, I will keep you all advised as to how it goes...so far...GREAT!

 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #20 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 11:22am »
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Wow. Yet another positive success story. Mark, I forgot, are you chronic or episodic?
 
Guess this means you won't have to pursue the surgery in AZ...which is great.
 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #21 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 12:27pm »
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on Oct 30th, 2003, 11:22am, hdbngr wrote:
Wow. Yet another positive success story. Mark, I forgot, are you chronic or episodic?
 
Guess this means you won't have to pursue the surgery in AZ...which is great.  
 
Vanasa

 
Good question Vanasa.....ECH for 27 years...I missed one cycle back in the 80's is the only year I remember missing. Right now I am on top of the world...this is great! I can finally enjoy the changing of the leaves in Tennessee!
 

 
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #22 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 12:36pm »
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Beautiful photo of autumn - wish I had an excuse to drive back to St. Louis via Tennessee and Kentucky this weekend.  Glad to hear you are PF.
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #23 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 4:53pm »
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Glad to hear about the improvement. It IS a weird feeling, hm?  
 
Now if only you could stop banging your head on your desk, you may get out off headaches all together, lol
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Re: Alternative Therapy
« Reply #24 on: Oct 30th, 2003, 5:30pm »
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Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
 
Wonderful news,
T
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