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Topic: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease (Read 1595 times) |
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Bob_Johnson
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Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« on: Jun 15th, 2005, 11:00am » |
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There have been a few reports posted here about the substantial % of CH folks who have sleep apnea and its association with CH.
Here, we have a report adding more evidence to the warnings that sleep apnea can both lead to heart disease and increase the risks in folks who have already been diagnosed with heart disease.
Although "positive airway pressure" therapy may be difficult to live with, this study indicates why continuing it with has some significiant benefits.
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Sleep Apnea Therapy Improves Cardiovascular Outcomes
By Will Boggs, MD
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) Jun 13 - Nasal continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) therapy lowers cardiovascular death rates in patients with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), according to a report in the June issue of Chest.
"We believe that these findings provide a strong basis for physicians to encourage compliance with CPAP in patients with OSA, particularly in severe cases, based on the strong likelihood that such patients, if untreated, are at substantially higher risk of cardiovascular complications," Dr. Walter T. McNicholas from St. Vincent's University Hospital, Dublin told Reuters Health.
Dr. McNicholas and colleagues compared the cardiovascular outcomes over more than 7 years of 107 patients with OSA who continued to receive CPAP therapy with 61 similar patients who had quit therapy.
A significantly smaller proportion of patients continuing CPAP therapy experienced cardiovascular death (1.9%) than did patients who discontinued CPAP (14.8%), the authors report.
Most deaths in the untreated group were during the night or early morning hours, the investigators note, and four of the nine deaths were sudden and unexpected. Only two CPAP-treated patients died of cardiovascular causes during follow-up.
There were also significantly more cardiovascular events (death and new cardiovascular disease combined) in the untreated patients (31%) than in the CPAP-treated patients (18%), the results indicate.
Among the patients who died, there were no differences in age at diagnosis, body mass index, or apnea/hypopnea index, the researchers note.
The two groups did not differ in body mass index (which did not change significantly), subsequent otolaryngologic surgery, or smoking behavior during follow-up, the report indicates.
"OSA is a substantial contributing factor to cardiovascular disease, and cardiologists should be aware of this association, particularly since our data indicate substantial cardiovascular benefit from treatment of the disorder," Dr. McNicholas concluded.
"We are currently engaged in an extensive translational project examining the relationship between intermittent hypoxia (which is characteristic of OSA) and the activation of inflammatory pathways that predispose to atherogenesis," Dr. McNicholas explained. "These studies involve a cell culture model of intermittent hypoxia and also the measurement of various inflammatory and adaptive cytokines in patients with OSA."
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Bob Johnson
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pattik
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #1 on: Jun 15th, 2005, 11:42am » |
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Thanks Bob--The apnea/oxygen link to CH seems quite substantial from what I have read, and I'm glad you have found recent information to keep us updated. I, for one, appreciate your research. Patti 
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burnt-toast
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #2 on: Jun 15th, 2005, 12:29pm » |
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I understand that A Dr. Lasorda from Allegheny General Hospital in Pgh. may currently be considering a study on the possible relationships between headaches, heart defects and sleep apnea.
As I understand it heart patients reporting that their long-term headaches suddenly disappeared after minor heart defects were diagnosed/corrected is what generated interest in the study.
I am attempting to obtain more infornation and to see if test subjects are being recruited.
Tom
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floridian
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #3 on: Jun 15th, 2005, 8:21pm » |
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I agree that apnea is serious, widespread among cluster heads, and seldom treated. But it is not clear that CPAP machines help most cluster heads, or that clusterheads generally have Obstructive apnea. I think it is more likely that we stop breathing due to neurological reasons, not due to physical obstructions that block the breath. Serotonin is key to the nerves that control breathing.
I would encourage people to get a sleep study, and to try CPAP if apnea is found. But we should be pushing doctors to consider the possibility that our apnea isn't obstructive, just like our headaches aren't migraines.
http://www.med-owl.com/clusterheadaches/tiki-index.php?page=Apnea
Quote: Med Clin North Am. 1985 Nov;69(6):1205-19.
Central sleep apnea.
White DP.
Central sleep apnea is a disorder characterized by apneic episodes during sleep with no associated ventilatory effort. More commonly than not these apneas are seen in patients who also have obstructive and mixed events. Although patients with this disorder frequently complain of insomnia and depression, frank hypersomnolence is rarely encountered. As these complaints are common ones seen in numerous clinical situations, and since sleep studies are rarely conducted to investigate their etiology, the true incidence of central sleep apnea has not been determined. The etiology of central apnea remains unknown, although the association between these breathing events and a number of other disease processes has increased our understanding of the disorder. Central apneas during sleep commonly occur after hyperventilation with the associated hypocapnic alkalosis. This occurs at high altitude when hyperventilation is induced by hypoxia and at sea level when spontaneous nocturnal hyperventilation occurs. This suggests that PCO2 is the primary stimulus to ventilation during sleep and that loss of this drive, as occurs with hypocapnia, may produce dysrhythmic breathing. Patients with complete absence of ventilatory chemosensitivity such as occurs with Ondine's curse (central alveolar hypoventilation) or the obesity-hypoventilation syndrome may also have central apneas. For reasons that remain unexplained, central sleep apnea is commonly seen in patients with congestive heart failure, nasal obstruction, and certain neurologic disorders. However, in most patients with central sleep apnea no obvious cause or association can be found. The treatment of this disorder is not entirely satisfactory. If it is severe, mechanical ventilation during sleep can be provided by any one of a number of techniques. However, for the patient who simply complains of insomnia and is found to have a moderate number of central apneas, the treatment choices are limited. Acetazolamide has been shown to decrease central apneas during short-term use, but results have been variable with prolonged administration. Other ventilatory stimulants seem to have little efficacy. Interestingly, oxygen administration has been shown to reduce central apneas considerably in a number of studies, although the explanation for its success is unknown. Central sleep apnea therefore remains a relatively rare disorder whose etiology is not fully understood and whose treatment is not completely satisfactory.
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Quote:Life Sci. 2004 Sep 24;75(19):2281-90.
5HT2 and 5HT3 receptors' contribution to modeling of post-serotonin respiratory pattern in cats.
Kopczynska B, Szereda-Przestaszewska M. Laboratory of Respiration Physiology, PAS Medical Research Center, 5 Pawinskiego St., 02-106 Warsaw, Poland. kopczynb@cmdik.pan.pl
Cardio-respiratory reflex effects of an exogenous serotonin challenge are suggested to be modulated by activation of the peripheral 5HT2 and 5HT3 receptors. In the present experiments the blocking effects of serotoninergic active drugs: ketanserin and tropanserin (MDL 72222) were studied in six pentobarbitone-chloralose anaesthetized cats. Bolus injection of serotonin (0.05 mg.kg(-1)) into the right femoral vein evoked prompt apnea, hypotension followed by tachypnoeic breathing. Pre-treatment with ketanserin (0.1 mg.kg(-1)), 5HT2 receptor antagonist, shortened the duration of post-serotonin apnea (P < 0.05), but had no effect on the pattern of post-apnoeic breathing. 5HT3 receptor blockade with the selective antagonist MDL 72222 (0.2 mg.kg(-1)) totally eliminated respiratory response to serotonin. In breaths that followed post-serotonin apnea, peak amplitude of the integrated phrenic signal was reduced (P < 0.001), unbiased by ketanserin blockade, and remained at the baseline level in MDL treated rats. Serotonin-induced hypotension was unaffected by the blockade of 5HT2 receptors. Inactivation of 5HT3 receptors with MDL attenuated the fall in blood pressure (P < 0.05). This data suggests that the squeal of serotonin-induced pulmonary chemoreflex, i.e. respiratory arrest, post-apnoeic pattern of breathing, bradycardia, and partially hypotension are mediated by 5HT3 receptors.
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Marc
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #4 on: Jun 15th, 2005, 10:43pm » |
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Quote:| I think it is more likely that we stop breathing due to neurological reasons, not due to physical obstructions that block the breath. |
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This fits my younger brother's case. His apnea was severe and he was warned that a heart attack was imminent without CPAP.
After 12 years, no more CH's with the CPAP machine.
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mcf69
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #5 on: Jun 16th, 2005, 10:03am » |
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I've discussed the link between apnea and ch's with several other people on the board, most have greeted it with skepticism, I've gotten the comment several times that if apnea triggered clusters, why do people get clusters during the day when awake? My thoery is that if oxygen relieves CH, a dip in oxygen levels can trigger an attack. My personal experience is that since going on cpap several months ago I haven't had a single headache, cluster or otherwise. I used to wake up every morning with a nagging headache before, now I don't. As far as the clusters go, I haven't had a cycle since being on the machine, whether this is a result of being on cpap, or just not having a cycle yet, I don't know. Floridian brings up an interesting point about central apnea, there very well may be a correlation between CH and central apnea. I do remeber one lady here awhile ago that tried sleeeping with supplemental oxygen and had relief from her CH's, perhaps she had central apnea and it was corrected by the oxygen? All I do know is that there does need to be more research done, I really think there is a link, especially with those of us who only suffer from nocturnal attacks.
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Brew
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #6 on: Jun 17th, 2005, 9:40am » |
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I was diagnosed with severe OSA 2.5 years ago (cluster headaches for 15 years). I was put on CPAP therapy, and have noticed no change in the frequency or severity of my headaches. I've been sleeping better, and I've been out of cycle and PF since early Feb. of this year (which, for me, is a nice long stretch).
The only thing I can conclude so far is that the two conditions are not connected in my case. It is, however, nice to know that statistically I stand much less of a chance of having heart trouble while I sleep.
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Happeh
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #7 on: Aug 5th, 2005, 9:13pm » |
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on Jun 15th, 2005, 8:21pm, floridian wrote: I think it is more likely that we stop breathing due to neurological reasons, not due to physical obstructions that block the breath.
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It has to do with the way the body is constructed. It is not physical obstructions.
I find it interesting that the heart, sleep apnea and CH are related. Because of the way the body is constructed and functions, a specific type of bodily deficiency would cause all 3 problems.
Any of you ever try acupuncture before? Or have you tried Tai Chi? Tai Chi is something that will not help you for literally years. Probably 3.
I would suggest that your view of the body is inaccurate or incomplete. This is why people have so much trouble finding a cure for CH. They are looking in the wrong place.
If you were to spend some time looking into Chinese medicine, I think you would find some interesting ideas that might apply here.
There is one major difference between Chinese and Western medicine. Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient. Western medicine is like a gas station. The patient wheels up, lays there while the doctor does everything, then drives away.
Western medicine is about magic pills and expensive wonder technology. Chinese medicine is about learning how your body works, then using that knowledge yourself to fix what is broken.
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Jonny
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #8 on: Aug 5th, 2005, 9:27pm » |
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on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:13pm, Happeh wrote:There is one major difference between Chinese and Western medicine. Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient.
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Guess what fuck nuts.....I aint got time for shit to work when my head is in a vice......you do not or know anyone that has CH.
Your a fucking troll.......Mount your sticks girls.
Its pokin time!!!!
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Jill
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #9 on: Aug 5th, 2005, 9:39pm » |
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Quote:| There is one major difference between Chinese and Western medicine. Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient. |
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I was debating on whether to answer this but... well.... I am.
Chinese medicine is a real good tool for everything but Clusters! And you name the reason, it takes alot of time before it works. Time is not a clusterheads friend sometimes, I know I want relief and I dont want to have to wait for it. Especially not years... already doing that waiting for them to go away... 
And before you say it, I have tried some Chinese meds like acupuncture - doesnt work for clusters... actually triggered mine... 
Maybe you should go to another board and sell this, it isnt going to work here.. Sorry, had to say it.
Jill
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| « Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2005, 9:40pm by Jill » |
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"If you learn from your suffering and really come to understand the lesson you were taught you might be able to help someone else who is now in the phase. Maybe that is what its all about after all.."
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floridian
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #10 on: Aug 5th, 2005, 9:55pm » |
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Loads of anecdotal evidence that acupuncture doesn't help with clusters - maybe someday they'll come up with something similar to a nerve block that is specific for CH, but for now, not likely to help.
Chinese herbs - kudzu does work. Other Chinese herbs can block CGRP, nitric oxide.
Both western and eastern medicine are attempts to understand disorder and remedy it. Both have shortcomings.
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Kevin_M
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #11 on: Aug 5th, 2005, 10:24pm » |
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on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:13pm, Happeh wrote:It has to do with
I find
Because of the way
I would suggest that
This is why
If you were to
Western medicine is about
Chinese medicine is about |
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The way you start sentences, it gives the impression you had something to say. Unfortunately, you finish the sentences.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2005, 10:50pm by Kevin_M » |
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Ueli
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #12 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 12:05am » |
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on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:13pm, Happeh wrote:| Tai Chi is something that will not help you for literally years. Probably 3. |
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And how do you know it was the Tai Chi that brought a longer remission, and not some "magic pills" or simply old age?
Quote:| ... This is why people have so much trouble finding a cure for CH.... |
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Not me, I have no trouble finding a cure, since I have accepted the fact that there is no cure.
Quote:| Chinese medicine almost always takes time and work on the part of the patient. |
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That is, if the body heals itself, or with the aid of some "magic pills", of course the success is claimed for the Chinese method.
That reminds of the ancient Chinese horoscope: a (good or bad) event was not forecast for a specified date, rather a period up to 20 years, or even more, was allowed. So, if the event occurred within a few years the astrologer could claim success, if not he would say you must wait a bit longer and after 20 years nobody thought any longer of the prophecy and the seer had probably died already.
Quote:| Western medicine is about magic pills and expensive wonder technology. ... |
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The magic is a complete misnomer, as the way the pill work is usually pretty well known, quite in contrary to most Chinese treatments. The "wonder technology" is only wondrous for people with no knowledge in natural science at all, who instead cling to primitive archaic notions that no reasonable person still believes in.
Quote:| ... Chinese medicine is about learning how your body works, then using that knowledge yourself to fix what is broken. |
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"how your body works" in Chinese ways means: repeat the thousand of years old fairy tales of good and bad spirits, mysterious forces and energies that nobody can quantify.
I must agree Jonny, you can't be a clusterhead. Otherwise you wouldn't recommend methods that take 3 years (or more) to work. When are you coming out and recommend where to buy a specific herb, which witch doctor to consult?
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floridian
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #13 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 8:29am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:05am, Ueli wrote:
"how your body works" in Chinese ways means: repeat the thousand of years old fairy tales of good and bad spirits, mysterious forces and energies that nobody can quantify.
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My favorite mumbo-jumbo is from the western theory of matter .... everything is made of quarks! The word quark was originally a non-sense term from Finnegan's Wake by James Joyce ("Three quarks for Master Mark/Sure he hasn't got much of a bark/And sure any he has it's all beside the mark"). Western scientists were quick to adopt this non-sensical approach to explain a set of experiments that could not be explained in normal logical framework.
According to the great minds, Quarks have 6 properties (which they call 'flavors). These flavors include things I've never tasted, included color, position and charm/strangeness.
However, objectively, these scientists admit that quarks are so small that they cannot have color - quarks are are so much smaller than any wavelength of light, and the same scientists that have said that no one can ever see them. That should be enough to set off a warning in your mind, unless you are not reading this now.
The color flavors they cannot but do have include red, green and blue (sorta like artificial candy, gimme one of those red flavors). And there are also anti-flavors: anti-red, anti-green and anti-blue, also called cyan, magenta and yellow.
Spin does not occur clock-wise or counter-clockwise like a basketball or planet; quark spin is Up or Down. While this sounds strange to the untrained person, it should be noted that this is not ordinary spin; it is spin flavor. Personally, I would have created 'sweet' and 'sour' spin flavors, but I was 40 years too late. It is true that the early bird gets the worm.
There are 'top' and 'bottom' quarks, just as there are top and bottom members of other types of relationships. This metaphor makes sense to most people, and needs no further explanation here. It is covered in great detail at most BDSM websites.
As to a sub-atomic particle having charm or being strange (the final 2 flavors), I'll leave that up to readers. Some find it strangely charming, others just find it strange.
Quark theory was invented by a chap named Gell-Mann. Gell-Mann described the system as the "Eightfold Way" - clearly an appropriation of the Buddhist's "Eightfold Path." When the Buddhists get angry about their mystical terms being borrowed by nuclear physicists (who also invented atomic and hydrogen weapons), the physicists shift the talk to "8-dimensional hypercube manifolds" and go about their business as if the world was not about to explode.
Of course, you shouldn't expect the physicists to quantify all this in an exact way. They are too busy crafting metaphors. One university physics page put it succinctly:
"The masses (of quarks) should not be taken too seriously, because the confinement of quarks implies that we cannot isolate them to measure their masses in a direct way. The masses must be implied indirectly from scattering experiments." http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/quark.html
If you'll excuse me now, its time for my five seasons acupuncture treatment - I think I need to raise some of my metal into the wood, and heat water with an excess of fire. My triple burner meridian is overactive, you see. 
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Leggs
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #14 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26am » |
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Thanks for that info Bob. My husband has sleep apnea, and had a heart cath (normal, luckily) last September. He has had headaches that I think are clusters, episodic, but his doctors blow it off as related to his high blood pressure. BUT he'll have them when he's on meds and his blood pressure is fine.
Not everyone with CH may have the apnea problem, and vice versa, but when there are significant numbers, it's good to look into connections that could help the some with treatment. Another thing, this year, I have gained some weight from lack of exercise after I was hurt in a car accident, and I have been snoring my head off, I even snore myself awake I am so loud sometimes. My CH has been much worse this year, and peaking it's ugly head around the corner out of cycle....there really could be a connection there, with the lack of oxygen and the headache changes....
Re: The troll HAPPEH
GO AWAY!!!! I personally am on kudzu, which helped me get through my July cycle, in a DAY not three years.
Like someone else said, if it takes three years, how do you know it has anything to do with the treatment?? This is just dumba$$ logic. Whatever condition you have may have spontaneously gone away, or other issues could have changed that related to it. Where are your numbers, where are you facts?
How does your dumba$$ logic explain to a CH sufferer exactly what they are supposed to do for THREE YEARS, when it's hell to suffer through even ONE HEADACHE???
Compliment Chinese medicine all you want, but western medicine does not kill off animals nearly to the point of extinction for their nuts and gallbladders with the off chance of it helping someone who is "patient" 3 years down the road. Again, where are your numbers where are your facts? Three years is not a cure or a treatment, three years is a prison term.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 6th, 2005, 9:30am by Leggs » |
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Happeh
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #15 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 9:53am » |
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on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:27pm, Jonny wrote:
Guess what fuck nuts.....I aint got time for shit to work when my head is in a vice......you do not or know anyone that has CH.
Your a fucking troll.......Mount your sticks girls.
Its pokin time!!!!
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Can someone tell me whether or not hate is a symptom of CH?
I walked in here 3 days ago. I posted my opinion on a subject.
About 8 people responding with friendly insightful posts like this one.
I feel like I have wandered into a motorcycle bar or maybe I am at the local teenager hangout where the kids use cuss words and say nasty things to each other in order to prove their manhood.
If you disagree with my posts, there is no need for attack. You can say you disagree, or you can ignore the post. There is no reason for your hate, your rudeness, and your evil language.
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Redd
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #16 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am » |
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Happeh
This has been said enough and it's about time you listen up.
You are not welcome here. We don't want your types around. You have nothing of value to contribute so on behalf of the rest of my family here I'm politely asking that you delete your profile and troll in some other community. WThe welcome sign clearly states "exclusivly for CH sufferers and their supporters". NOT for trolls spouting nothing but rhetoric.
I've stated this as nicely as you are going to get it. Now please, turn around and close the door quietly behind you.
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I saw an act of faith today. A man was on his knees, not in a pew in a Church, but in a garden planting seeds. ~~Unknown
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Happeh
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #17 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am » |
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on Aug 5th, 2005, 9:39pm, Jill wrote:
I was debating on whether to answer this but... well.... I am.
Chinese medicine is a real good tool for everything but Clusters! And you name the reason, it takes alot of time before it works. Time is not a clusterheads friend sometimes, I know I want relief and I dont want to have to wait for it. Especially not years... already doing that waiting for them to go away...
And before you say it, I have tried some Chinese meds like acupuncture - doesnt work for clusters... actually triggered mine...
Maybe you should go to another board and sell this, it isnt going to work here.. Sorry, had to say it.
Jill
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Why be sorry? I made a suggestion I think will help people. You disagree. That is fine.
You say cluster people do not have time. Where are you going? As far as I know, we are all stuck here on Planet Earth until we die. You have a choice of finding immediate relief thru pills, or you can fix the root cause of the problem by learning a more correct idea of how the body functions.
As for asking me to leave because what I "am selling" is not going to work, I am puzzled.
I understand why you suggest I should leave. The man who responded before you is aggressive and violent. I completely understand why women would do what is necessary to avoid an aggressive and violent man.
I am a man myself. I deal with animals such as that person all the time. Just like I kick a bad dog, I can kick them. I can protect myself from the mindless. Don't concern yourself with my welfare. It will only give you added stress I don't think you need. I am pleased that you care enough to offer the advice though.
I am not selling anything. I am offering an alternative viewpoint. I do not know how people here think. I phrase what I have to say in a way that I believe people might understand or accept. If that doesn't work, I try to phrase things another way. I am a versatile person.
Adults are just grown kids. They still need to be treated like children. You know how when you have a child and he needs cough medicine? You have to coax and cajole and plead and threaten until he opens his mouth so you can put the nasty tasting cough syrup in his mouth?
That is what I have to do with adults. Except it is 10 times as hard because, as you can see, adults can be hurtful and hateful. I have to get them to calm down, just like a child, then I have to cajole them into listening to me, just like a child, then I have to tell them what I need to tell them, just like the parent finally succeeding in getting the child to swallow the cough syrup.
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Happeh
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #18 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:22am » |
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And how do you know it was the Tai Chi that brought a longer remission, and not some "magic pills" or simply old age? [/quote]
Why are you certain it was not Tai Chi in this mythical instance you are describing?
on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:05am, Ueli wrote:
The magic is a complete misnomer, as the way the pill work is usually pretty well known, quite in contrary to most Chinese treatments. The "wonder technology" is only wondrous for people with no knowledge in natural science at all, who instead cling to primitive archaic notions that no reasonable person still believes in. |
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Your statement is your opinion. You have no real knowledge about Chinese medicine. You say "cling to primitive archaic beliefs". What if I told you that technology is about convincing you to spend money? Those people tell you Chinese medicine is primitive because there is no money in Chinese medicine. Chinese medicine is about natural herbs, inexpensive acupuncture and self help. Western medicine is about monthly prescriptions costing 100's of dollars, MRI machines costing 1000's of dollars to operate, doctors making 200,000 dollars a year.
I am a reasonable person and I believe in Chinese medicine completely. That is because I took the time to look into it. I let go of my unfounded arrogance about Western techonolgy and acutally took the time to look into what Chinese medicine is all about.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:05am, Ueli wrote:
"how your body works" in Chinese ways means: repeat the thousand of years old fairy tales of good and bad spirits, mysterious forces and energies that nobody can quantify. |
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You are wrong. If I was a con artist who wanted your money, like a Western Doctor, how would I convince you to pay me all your money instead of going to the Chinese Doctor who only wants a fair amount of your money?
I would start up a public relations campaign saying Chinese medicine is no good. Since I have already fleeced hundreds of people out of all their money thru my MRI's, operations's, and drugs, I have lots of money for a PR campaign. Since Chinese medicine is about a fair amount of money, they cannot finance a counter campaign to get the truth out their. They have to rely on word of mouth.
It is also one of the basic tenets of Chinese medicine that they do not try to convince people about the efficacy of their treatments. Part of the treatment is based on faith. A person forced to take Chinese medicine will resist. The results will be poisoned. A person who wants to take Chinese medicine will have the necessary postive mental attitude that is so integral to the health of any human being.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 12:05am, Ueli wrote:
I must agree Jonny, you can't be a clusterhead. Otherwise you wouldn't recommend methods that take 3 years (or more) to work.
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Here is where your arrogance and your sarcasm trip you up. Where are you going? We all live on Planet Earth until we die. You say "Who can wait 3 years" as if you have some alternative. What is the alternative? Living with the pain the rest of your life.
I am an old guy. I can say with utter authority that it took years to understand and find relief from health problems. I already went the route people here have taken. Spending thousands of insurance dollars on MRI's and drugs. None of it worked.
It was only when, out of complete desperation, I went to a Chinese medicine doctor and began to teach myself some of what they know that I was finally able to find relief.
I need to be clear here. I am not saying you can go to the Chinese Medicine doctor and he can cure you immediately. Maybe he can. I am saying that people need to see the Chinese Medicine doctor while also learning about Chinese medicine themselves.
The patient has to learn the basic ideas behind Chinese Medicine so that he can change his life to live properly. If you life a bad life, then expect the Chinese Medicine doctor to cure what you have done to yourself, then you are right. They will fail.
People need to take responsibility for understanding how their body works instead of handing that responsibility to a doctor. A doctor is a busy man with a life. He sees many other patients besides you. If it comes down to a time crunch, the doctor will push you out the door so he can see antoher person. If you are cured or not, it doesn't matter. He has patients to see and bills to pay.
Let me give you an example. I went to a Western doctor with a health problem. He wanted me to do something. I had questions about his recommendations. He answered 1 or 2 questions then he very obviously let it be known he was busy and I was taking his time. The sick paying patient, me, was wasting his valuable time. I was paying him so he would spend time with me to help me. Not to tell me he was busy and push me out the door.
In complete opposition to he above example, I went to a Chinese Medicine doctor with a problem. I had some questions that the doctor was willing to speak with me about. Completely unaware, I took up 3 hours of that doctors time. She had to go out and arrange for other doctors to take her other patients. But she stayed with me for 3 hours trying to help me.
That is the sign of a person who truly cares. A person who wants to do whatever it takes to help a sick patient become healthy.
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LeLimey
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OUCH-US - Less "ME" and more "WE"
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #19 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:24am » |
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John go away!!
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The arsehole I'm divorcing needs to get a life and stop stalking mine
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pattik
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #20 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:26am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am, Redd715 wrote:| The welcome sign clearly states "exclusivly for CH sufferers and their supporters. |
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Happeh, does this describe you, or does it not? If it does not, you are on the wrong site. Posting your theories does not define you as a supporter. And if you do not suffer from CH, I see no reason for you to be posting here. Please refrain.
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The voyage of discovery is not about seeking new landscapes, it's about having new eyes--Marcel Proust
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sandie99
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #21 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:29am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:53am, Happeh wrote:
Can someone tell me whether or not hate is a symptom of CH?
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Why do I think of the saying one idiot asks more questions than a group of wise people can answer...?
First, I don't believe in hating other people. Buddha said that " You won't be punished because you hate but your hate will punish you". So I don't waste time in hating others. But I do get irritated. And frankly, you're getting on my nerves! Big time.
You don't want us - the ch community - to make any assumptions about you, but you're making your own about us all the time. You have called members of this community animals. "I deal with animals such as that person all the time" were the exact words you used. That is rude and uncalled for. This community exists to help people who suffer the most horrible pain there is - clusterheadaches - and their supporters. Which one are you?
I make an assumption of my own: neither. Because if you were one or the other, you would know how hellish even one ch attack is! You would know that people who deal with such pain should not be irritated. Especially when they're having an attack. The unbearable pain makes anyone a rageaholic.
If you have to stick around in here, at least read about clusterheadaches and what we have tried in the past. Then you'd know that very little has skipped our radar. All kinds of cures have been tried and the results have been reported in here.
I'm a peace-loving woman, I have lost my temper in big time 3 times in my entire life (funnily because of men at all times) and you're very close of becoming no 4 on the list. You've been asked not to come here. I must wonder why you want to keep bothering the good people here at ch.com? Get another hobby and leave us alone.
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Happeh
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #22 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:32am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26am, Leggs wrote:
Re: The troll HAPPEH
GO AWAY!!!! I personally am on kudzu, which helped me get through my July cycle, in a DAY not three years. |
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Hello Leggs. I don't believe we have ever met before. How do you do?
Why is it that you think I am a troll? Because I have a belief system different from yours? That is not a very good reason to be rude to another person.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26am, Leggs wrote:
Like someone else said, if it takes three years, how do you know it has anything to do with the treatment?? This is just dumba$$ logic. |
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Because that is the usual amount of time for a normal person to see results. I said Tai Chi in relation to the number 3 years. Your question makes it sound like I am saying 3 years of Chinese Medicine treatment and you are fine.
Very clearly, I am saying in 3 years the person will have developed the beginnings of a health body. Once they have the underlying foundation that the 3 years of work provides, everything else is downhill from there.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26am, Leggs wrote:
How does your dumba$$ logic explain to a CH sufferer exactly what they are supposed to do for THREE YEARS, when it's hell to suffer through even ONE HEADACHE??? |
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I don't understand your need to include insults in your questions. I can still understand the queston with no insults.
A person is welcome to continue whatever treatment they choose over the course of those 3 years. If you find that Kudzu stuff helps you, go ahead and take it during the 3 years you perform Tai Chi.
I must warn you though that the use of drugs can affect a person when they are practicing Tai Chi. I have no idea what the effects on the body of Kudzu are. If they are like other drugs, it is not a good idea to take them, then go practice. Save the drugs for the days or times you do not practice.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 9:26am, Leggs wrote:
Compliment Chinese medicine all you want, but western medicine does not kill off animals nearly to the point of extinction for their nuts and gallbladders with the off chance of it helping someone who is "patient" 3 years down the road.
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Your point does have validity. I would say that Western Medicine does the same thing though. You seem to have no problem with Western Medicine.
There is a breast cancer drug that is made from the bark of a tree. Once the drug was discovered, people starting cutting down all the trees. I do not know the current news regarding these trees or the drug. The situation is the same. Destroying something for the benefit of human beings.
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Happeh
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #23 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:39am » |
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on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am, Redd715 wrote:Happeh
This has been said enough and it's about time you listen up.
You are not welcome here. We don't want your types around. |
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What exactly is your type? You could be right. Is your type the hater who attacks anyone who is different? Anyone who is not part of the group? Anyone who says or believes something different than you?
If that is what this group is about, you are correct. I do not belong here. I belong with open minded and friendly people who are willing to listen to new ideas. I have posted in 2 thread here. I have posted maybe 10 or 15 posts.
2 thread and 15 posts and I have about 10 haters calling me names and telling me to leave. Not to mention the haters who send me personal messages with awful and disgusting foul language in it.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am, Redd715 wrote:
You have nothing of value to contribute so on behalf of the rest of my family here I'm politely asking that you delete your profile and troll in some other community. WThe welcome sign clearly states "exclusivly for CH sufferers and their supporters". NOT for trolls spouting nothing but rhetoric. |
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I have plenty of value to contribute. If you would stop attacking me and listen and think, you would see this.
You are being polite? Who are you kidding? You are a bully who is trying to be so obnoxious to a total stranger that he leaves. Your calling me a troll is just a way that simple people use to work themselves up into a froth of hate. You need to work yourself up to spew your hatred and name calling performs that function for you.
on Aug 6th, 2005, 10:01am, Redd715 wrote:
I've stated this as nicely as you are going to get it. Now please, turn around and close the door quietly behind you. |
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Sorry. I don't cooperate with bullies. It is against my nature to encourage people to believe that rude behavior, intimidation and violence get results. I will be here, speaking calmly and politely, trying to help people if I can.
You will need to find someone else to frighten and chase around. By the way you talk, I think you need a woman to bully. They will get scared just like you desire. Your ego can grow to new heights as the woman quivers in fear before your undeniable power.
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Redd
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Re: Ch, sleep apnea and heart disease
« Reply #24 on: Aug 6th, 2005, 10:39am » |
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Quote:| Why is it that you think I am a troll? |
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An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
I think this sums it up quite nicely...
Now take the advice and scram....
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I saw an act of faith today. A man was on his knees, not in a pew in a Church, but in a garden planting seeds. ~~Unknown
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