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Topic: 5-HT activity in Kudzu (Read 32689 times) |
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #275 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:29am » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:10am, PCMCCK wrote:| ... have any scientific studies been done by an accredited American institute, medical or university ... |
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The discussion of kudzu for clusters is only about 1 month old - approximately 10 people have tried it that I know of, and all but 1 of those reported good to excellent results - most people are reporting definite changes within 2 days. There is no controlled research at this time on CH. There are 3 studies on kudzu and migraine that I know of. One of these was in China, and may or may not be rigorous. The other two studies were on kudzu and menstrual migraine, and one was in the US and one in Italy. The researchers assumption was that it was an estrogen that would only help female migraneurs, but that is a big assumption that does not seem to be the case.
You may want to check out the German Commission E Monographs on Kudzu - I have a copy on order and will add that to the discussion later, but it may be easy for you to get locally.
Quote:| are there plans to market the medication for physicians to prescribe for the treatment of CH patients |
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If it is an herb, it is difficult to get a patent monopoly, the drug companies aren't interested, and the system doesn't do the necessary paperwork and research and market it the way they do viagra and rogaine. Also, in the US, there is minimal regulation unless there is a clear risk. But there is always the possibility that some doctors would be interested and would conduct a trial, and doctors can mention it to their patients. I was actually thinking that we are getting close to the point of emailing a bunch of doctors with a summary of our experience. A friend's uncle works for Schwabe Gmbh, I will try to make contact and sound him out on that.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:32am by floridian » |
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #276 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:43am » |
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Quote:| I'm getting a bit bogged down here. What supplements would you recommend? I'm reading about magnesium and coq10 and allsorts and I don't quite know which will work together or counteract or what? |
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I don't think anything you mentioned is known to directly counteract the other.
Wish it were easy, but it is complicated. Think about the pharmaceutical side for comparison - some people take lithium, some take a prednisone taper with verapamil, others add triptans to the mix. There is topomax, ergotamine, and a few people on ritalin, olanzapine, anti-coagulants, and other drugs. Plus oxygen. If a single med gives good control, that may be all that is needed. Many people try different combinations, always in search of better defense against the beast.
CoQ10 has been investigated for migraine, and some evidence is there. Not sure if Coq10 helps with clusters - it may, but not a first option if one is short on money, or trying to get quickly PF. (for migraine, it took 3 months to significantly cut the frequency of headaches).
Magnesium is generally a good thing, and intravenous magnesium helps with clusters in 40% of people - especially those with low magnesium, while magnesium tablets may help (some long timers believe in it). It is also needed for calcium metabolism (along with vit D, vitamin K, biotin, et). Magnesium absorption may be low in people with certain digestive disorders - epsom salt baths are a good alternative.
Melatonin is proven to help many with clusters in a number of studies, and that is consistent with the experiences on this board.
But what combination of these is best for an individual? No simple answer. It varies, just like it does with prescription meds.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:46am by floridian » |
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Bob P
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #277 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:45am » |
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Thought I read that koodzoo dialtes coronary blood vessles and increases blood flow/velocity in cereberal blood vessels. Thoughts?
5-HT activity.
Beta blocker?
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #278 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:54am » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 9:45am, Bob P wrote:Thought I read that koodzoo dialtes coronary blood vessles and increases blood flow/velocity in cereberal blood vessels. Thoughts?
5-HT activity.
Beta blocker? |
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Yeah, I've read that it increases blood flow. Some might shy away from any vasodilator on the theory that vasoconstrictor = good for CH and migraine, vasodilator = bad. But niacin (which causes vasodilation and flushing) can prevent migraine in some people, even though its action on blood vessels is opposite that of triptans. Some chems may act differently on small blood vessels vs large, etc.
Some evidence that it is a beta-blocker (which have limited use in CH).
The 5-HT (serotonin) activity is what started this thread - still don't understand it, but I think that is part of how it helps.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 9:55am by floridian » |
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PCMCCK
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #279 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 10:00am » |
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Thank you very much for your kind answer, floridian.
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Bob P
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #280 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 10:13am » |
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Quote:| Yeah, I've read that it increases blood flow. Some might shy away from any vasodilator on the theory that vasoconstrictor = good for CH and migraine, vasodilator = bad. |
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I'll have to locate the article again but I thought it said that it:
dialates coronary blood vessles,
increases blood velocity in cereberal vessles.
It seems to me that dialting vessles decreases velocity. Could it be the beta blocking agent dialating coronary vessels and the 5-HT portion constricing cereberal?
Gone searching for the article again.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #281 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 10:19am » |
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Okay, now I'm into Day 7 on the Zu.
Yesterday's experience would indicate that while I've had pretty darn good results (no CH for 4.5 days), the kudzu doesn't make me "six foot tall and bulletproof". I pushed the envelope last night by playing hockey. I got very, very hot playing and it triggered, what would eventually be, a Kip 8. 
Why would it trigger last night versus my previous vigorous exercise the last few days? Time of day? (started playing at 9:30pm -- a little tired already) Temperature? (it's been pretty cold when I've been running so overall body temp doesn't spike so badly as last night)
Certainly a let down but in my present appraisal it doesn't totally negate the benefits I think I've gotten this week. It has simply tempered them with the reality that it may have the ability to mute the beast but the beast is still in there, which I've indicated I felt earlier in the week. And, the reality is that I played some games with the beast this week by pushing it to the limits (I'd like to think, "in the name of science" .
So, if the zu can give some confidence to resume, say 75% of normal activity during a cycle without the anxiety that it could result in a "bad experience", that would be plenty for me.
So, I've got to get a second package of Kudzu to keep on, keepin' on the zu. And, back off a little and let the cycle go its route in a muted fashion.
(Floridian, i'll be posting my 7 day survey today)
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #282 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 10:52am » |
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I doubled up on one of the doses, yesterday. Instead of taking two tablets three times a day, I took two tablets four times. Yesterday, I had a shadow in the morning that was pretty painful, and then an afternoon shadow, and I was worried what that seemed to portend for last night. I sat up and watched a movie last night, until midnight, and then got hit with a shadow. Once again, it was a Kip-5 and lasted for 30 minutes. So far, that's all. I'm thinking that if I weren't taking the kudzu, these shadows might have been full-blown hits. I've never had shadows before, so this is all new to me...
Day 4, but no shadows yet... *crossing my fingers*
My theory about why kudzu works, even if it is a vasodilator, is that it lowers the blood pressure, but opens the vessels so that there is more oxygen being delivered. The same effect that high-flow oxygen has on cluster headaches, perhaps?
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 10:53am by Jeepgun » |
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Boyce
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #283 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 11:58am » |
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kudzu vs. psychedelic question....
I've read that triptans in the system will negate the effectivness of the clusterbusters technique.....I'm not not 100% up to speed on the science behind that....however, would there be the same correlation with Kudzu?
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Bob P
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #284 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 12:45pm » |
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Oh oh! Better stock up on viagra!
Quote:Estrogen and phytoestrogen predispose to erectile dysfunction: do ER-alpha and ER-beta in the cavernosum play a role?
Srilatha B, Adaikan PG.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore.
OBJECTIVES: To investigate the functional changes in rabbit penile corpus cavernosum (CC) secondary to experimental hyperestrogenism and attempt to identify sites of immunoexpression for estrogen receptor subtypes alpha and beta (ER-alpha and ER-beta) in the CC. Although the role of testosterone in sexual function has been extensively studied in clinical settings and experimental animal models, the effect of hormonal modulation/imbalance arising from estrogenic excess has not been characterized. METHODS: Eighteen New Zealand white male rabbits (2.5-3.0 kg) were divided into control and two treatment groups. The two treatment groups were given orally 0.1 mg of estradiol valerate (estradiol group) or phytoestrogen, daidzein (phytoestrogen group) daily for 12 weeks. Blood and tissue samples were collected for hormone levels and in vitro pharmacologic studies. CC samples from untreated rabbits (n = 4) were cryosectioned and incubated with appropriate mouse monoclonal antibody for identification of ER-alpha and ER-beta. RESULTS: Through immunohistochemistry, color signals for nuclear ER-alpha and ER-beta receptors were localized within the CC. Chronic treatment with estradiol and phytoestrogen significantly reduced the systemic total testosterone levels. In organ bath experiments, relaxant responses to acetylcholine, nitroglycerin, and nitrergic transmission were significantly attenuated compared with the control response. With regard to the contractile effect, both types of estrogen treatments significantly potentiated norepinephrine-induced antierectile contraction of the CC. CONCLUSIONS: These results indicate that estradiol treatment and chronic exposure of phytoestrogen may cause receptor-mediated pathophysiologic changes in erectile function, leading to erectile dysfunction.
PMID: 14972507 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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seasonalboomer
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #285 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 12:51pm » |
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"OBJECTIVES: To investigate the functional changes in rabbit penile corpus cavernosum (CC) ....... CONCLUSIONS: These results indicate that estradiol treatment and chronic exposure of phytoestrogen may cause receptor-mediated pathophysiologic changes in erectile function, leading to erectile dysfunction. "
I don't know that I've seen any similar side effects, but I really have never found rabbits to be much of a turn-on either.
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Boyce
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #286 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 1:10pm » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 12:51pm, seasonalboomer wrote:
"OBJECTIVES: To investigate the functional changes in rabbit penile corpus cavernosum (CC) ....... CONCLUSIONS: These results indicate that estradiol treatment and chronic exposure of phytoestrogen may cause receptor-mediated pathophysiologic changes in erectile function, leading to erectile dysfunction. "
I don't know that I've seen any similar side effects, but I really have never found rabbits to be much of a turn-on either. |
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With three kids 8 y/o and under, two full time + jobs....and a busybusybusy calendar.....my wifey might welcome a little erectile disfunction every now and then.......
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #287 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 1:33pm » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 12:51pm, seasonalboomer wrote:| I don't know that I've seen any similar side effects, but I really have never found rabbits to be much of a turn-on either. |
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I don't know... When Bugs Bunny would dress up like a woman, Bugs was SHIT-HOT!!   
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #288 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 1:51pm » |
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**tapping foot**
Ahem....
man boobs, rabbit erectile dysfunction and cross dressing bunnies who are turn ons...... ?
nani...
who usually likes joking around as much as the next guy...
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Bob P
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #289 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 2:04pm » |
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I'm just cruising the 29 pages of PubMed articles on koodzoo and sharing these jewels with all y'all. Floridian has probably read all the pertinent stuff but for now I'm just saving the stuff regarding 5-HT and blood vessles, etc. to my hard drive for future reading.
These are all posted in a joking manner. I'm hopeful that another possible pain stopper may have found.
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #290 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 2:06pm » |
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I know Bob and they are funny, too...
I just felt a need to insert an AHEM in here somewhere. 
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #291 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 2:13pm » |
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Well, the word 'estrogen' or 'phytoestrogen' should trigger more thinking (maybe not that kind of thinking).
Here is a review of dietary phytoestrogens:
Quote:Forum Nutr. 2005;(57):100-11. Related Articles, Links
Health effects of phytoestrogens.
Branca F, Lorenzetti S.
National Institute for Research on Food and Nutrition, Rome, Italy. f.branca@agora.it
Phytoestrogens are naturally occurring plant-derived phytochemicals, whose common biological roles are to protect plants from stress or to act as part of a plant's defense mechanism. Although composed of a wide group of nonsteroidal compounds of diverse structure, phytoestrogens have been shown to bind estrogen receptors and to behave as weak agonist/antagonist in both animals and humans. Phytoestrogens include mainly isoflavones (IF), coumestans, and lignans. These compounds are known to be present in fruits, vegetables, and whole grains commonly consumed by humans. IF are found in legumes--mainly soybeans--whereas flaxseed is a major source of lignans, and coumestans are significantly present in clover, alfalfa and soybean sprouts. 8-Prenyl flavonoids are common in vegetables. Bioavailability of IF requires an initial hydrolysis of the sugar moiety by intestinal beta-glucosidases to allow the following uptake by enterocytes and the flow through the peripheral circulation. Following absorption, IF are then reconjugated mainly to glucuronic acid and to a lesser degree to sulphuric acid. Gut metabolism seems key to the determination of the potency of action. Several epidemiological studies correlated high dose consumptions of soy IF with multiple beneficial effects on breast and prostate cancers, menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis, atherosclerosis and stroke, and neurodegeneration. For the relief of menopausal symptoms a consumption of 60 mg aglycones/day has been suggested; for cancer prevention a consumption between 50 and 110 mg aglycones/day is considered beneficial to reduce risks of breast, colon and prostate cancer; to decrease cardiovascular risk a minimum intake of 40-60 mg aglycones/day, together with about 25 g of soy protein has been suggested. For improvement in bone mineral density, 60-100 mg aglycones/day for a period of at least 6-12 months could be beneficial. |
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In a study on undescended testicles in newborns, the mother's dietary phytoestrogen intake was not a risk factor, though smoking and pesticide exposure are, even in the father. Maybe at very high levels, phytoestrogens could affect fertility or the offspring (good to avoid if pregnant or trying to concieve).
Quote:Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Nov;112(15):1570-6.
Maternal and paternal risk factors for cryptorchidism and hypospadias: a case-control study in newborn boys.
Pierik FH, Burdorf A, Deddens JA, Juttmann RE, Weber RF. Department of Andrology, Erasmus MC, Rotterdam, The Netherlands. f.pierik@erasmusmc.nl
Little is known on environmental risk factors for cryptorchidism and hypospadias, which are among the most frequent congenital abnormalities. The aim of our study was to identify risk factors for cryptorchidism and hypospadias, with a focus on potential endocrine disruptors in parental diet and occupation. In a case-control study nested within a cohort of 8,698 male births, we compared 78 cryptorchidism cases and 56 hypospadias cases with 313 controls. The participation rate was 85% for cases and 68% for controls. Through interviews, information was collected on pregnancy aspects and personal characteristics, lifestyle, occupation, and dietary phytoestrogen intake of both parents. Occupational exposure to potential endocrine disruptors was classified based on self-reported exposure and ratings of occupational hygienists based on job descriptions. Our findings indicate that paternal pesticide exposure was associated with cryptorchidism [odds ratio (OR) = 3.8; 95% confidence interval (95% CI), 1.1-13.4]. Smoking of the father was associated with hypospadias (OR = 3.8; 95% CI, 1.8-8.2). Maternal occupational, dietary, and lifestyle exposures were not associated with either abnormality. Both abnormalities were associated with suboptimal maternal health, a lower maternal education, and a Turkish origin of the parents. Being small for gestational age was a risk factor for hypospadias, and preterm birth was a risk factor for cryptorchidism. Because paternal pesticide exposure was significantly associated with cryptorchidism and paternal smoking was associated with hypospadias in male offspring, paternal exposure should be included in further studies on cryptorchidism and hypospadias risk factors.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 2:18pm by floridian » |
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JJA
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #292 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 2:18pm » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 11:58am, Boyce wrote:kudzu vs. psychedelic question....
I've read that triptans in the system will negate the effectivness of the clusterbusters technique.....I'm not not 100% up to speed on the science behind that....however, would there be the same correlation with Kudzu?
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Probably. No real evidence here, but it appears that kudzu is inhibitory at the main site of psilocin's action. There seems to be a few people playing with both. So we'll see.
Jesse
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #293 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 2:45pm » |
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Which 5-HT sites are effected by shrooms and is it an agonistic or antagonistic effect?
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #294 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 3:17pm » |
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I believe it is the 5-ht2, particularly the 2a and 2c. My thinking is that the busters stimulate it at first, then tolerance sets in and they are less sensitive. But after reading the literature and talking to some of the clusterbusters, I am not sure.
Clusterbusters may not stimulate the receptors the way ordinary serotonin does. - Instead of a clean note, it has tremor, or a foot pedal effect.
Quote:
Psilocybin induces schizophrenia-like psychosis in humans via a serotonin-2 agonist action.
Neuroreport. 9(17):3897-3902, December 1, 1998.
Vollenweider, Franz X. 1,3; Vollenweider-Scherpenhuyzen, Margreet F. I. 2; Babler, Andreas 1; Vogel, Helen 1; Hell, Daniel 1
Abstract:
PSILOCYBIN, an indoleamine hallucinogen, produces a psychosis-like syndrome in humans that resembles first episodes of schizophrenia. In healthy human volunteers, the psychotomimetic effects of psilocybin were blocked dose-dependently by the serotonin-2A antagonist ketanserin or the atypical antipsychotic risperidone, but were increased by the dopamine antagonist and typical antipsychotic haloperidol. These data are consistent with animal studies and provide the first evidence in humans that psilocybin-induced psychosis is due to serotonin-2A receptor activation, independently of dopamine stimulation. Thus, serotonin-2A overactivity may be involved in the pathophysiology of schizophrenia and serotonin-2A antagonism may contribute to therapeutic effects of antipsychotics.
http://tinyurl.com/5rnaz
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So the big question appears to be how does kudzu block 5-ht2, and does it up regulate those receptors with daily use? If we find that episodics can stop kudzu after the cycle is over with no rebound, then that would be good news.
If some or all of the kudzu activity is from improved blood flow and not related to serotonin, then rebound is unlikely, I believe.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 3:19pm by floridian » |
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #295 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 3:22pm » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 3:17pm, floridian wrote:| If some or all of the kudzu activity is from improved blood flow and not related to serotonin, then rebound is unlikely, I believe. |
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Okay: This would lead me to believe that smoking cessation and limiting caffeine intake would improve the effectiveness of both O2 therapy and kudzu. Is this correct?
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #296 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 3:37pm » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 3:22pm, Frank_W wrote:
Okay: This would lead me to believe that smoking cessation and limiting caffeine intake would improve the effectiveness of both O2 therapy and kudzu. Is this correct? |
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Long term, smoking is definitely bad for the blood vessels, heart, and oxygen circulation. Not sure about caffeine - there are similarities, but caffeine is not as strong, not as harmful to the body for most people. I can't promise that quitting either of these will help with clusters or improve kudzu's effectiveness, though I think it is generally a good idea and it might help.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 3:43pm by floridian » |
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #297 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 3:51pm » |
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Well, I've been working on quitting smoking for some time, now. I will succeed, but one thing that is amazing to me, (and several people have remarked on it) is that so many CH sufferers are smokers. I'm wondering what the correlation is, if any... Is smoking a contributing factor? Is it something in our brain's wiring that predisposes us to be smokers? I know that smoking does have an effect on dopamine and seratonin levels...
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Bob P
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #298 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 4:03pm » |
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Quote:| Is it something in our brain's wiring that predisposes us to be smokers? |
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That's my guess. I'm betting that whatever it is that causes our clusters also gives us addictive personalities.
PSILOCYBIN = 5HT2 agonist
KUDZU = 5HT2 antagonist
Take 'em both at the smae time and no cigar for you.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2005, 4:06pm by Bob P » |
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #299 on: Mar 4th, 2005, 4:09pm » |
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on Mar 4th, 2005, 4:03pm, Bob P wrote:PSILOCYBIN = 5HT2 agonist
KUDZU = 5HT2 antagonist
Take 'em both at the smae time and no cigar for you. |
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so, Bob, does that mean that they would cancel each other our, or does it mean that it's dangerous to take both?
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