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Topic: 5-HT activity in Kudzu (Read 32688 times) |
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godsjoy777
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #400 on: Mar 14th, 2005, 11:42pm » |
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Here's my update on the Kudzu......I think I have been on it straight at differing levels for about 2 1/2 to 3 weeks....I'm not sure....Remember I was geting hit 3 big ones a night after getting off the Maxalt which was giving me rebound hits all day and night.....ayayayeee!!! Soooooo.....I got the Kudzu....it didn't do much at first....but as I increased the dosage to 2 pills in the am (600mgs)...Nature's Way.....2 at noonish and then 3 pills at night right before bedtime.....I had a FULL peaceful nights sleep last night....HALLELUJAH!!!!! I take magnesium sterate or something like that at night along with 3 mgs of melatonin.....Hope this keeps up and I'll start to ween off my Zonegran.....after awhile of course.....
Love you all,
Karen
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Mr. Happy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #401 on: Mar 14th, 2005, 11:57pm » |
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on Mar 14th, 2005, 11:42pm, godsjoy777 wrote:| I take magnesium sterate or something like that at night along with 3 mgs of melatonin..... |
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Lay off the magnesium and melatonin. Oh. And the Zonegran. You can always take them again later.
Beta testing is hard work.
RJ
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #402 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 5:55am » |
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Well after a ropey old start when I was getting extremely dizzy I have now had a full week of taking kudzu at 6 tabs of Natures Way a day. I take them one at a time four times a day and two together last thing at night and that has solved the dizziness problem. It has also helped with not getting hit at night so thats been great!
I have had one night time hit this week but that was after I was woken by my son anyway and it was the classic about an hour (ish) after going back to bed myself.
So far... alot more shadows than normal but only three hits in the entire week all of which have been much more subdued than normal and all of which have been considerably shorter.
I'm wondering if, like everyone else the shadows are hits with the oomph kicked out of them? I think its probably the case.
I'm definitely delighted with my experience so far and I'm eager to see how I will be reporting back NEXT Tuesday.. if having it build up in your system improves the status in week two or whatever? This is now Week 27 of my cycle so I am really really hoping this stuff finally knocks it on the head. At least if it doesn't it is giving me a bit more of my life back and that is priceless.
Other than the dizzyness I haven't noticed any other side effects unless you can attribute my tiredness to it? I have found I've felt alot more tired this week.. and I've slept more! That's not a whinge though 
Thanks Floridian et al. This has made a huge difference to me and (being greedy) I'm still hoping for more!
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Sandy_C
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #403 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 8:21am » |
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Good morning - and I mean that literally - it is a GOOD morning! I actually had a good night's sleep last night. It's amazing how much better and stronger you feel if you just can get a little sleep.
Yesterday was pretty good - no hits or shadows (maybe a baby one or two) all day. At my usual CH time (8:30 pm or so), felt one coming on and just chilled out to see what it was going to do. Not much - only a k2 or 3 and lasted only 15 minutes! After that, a few icepicks in my head. The day before, the icepicks were awful all night long. Great improvement. I am taking ONLY the kudzu, one 613 mg every three hours - absolutely nothing else but water water water (I've got three bathrooms in my house and I'm on VERY friendly terms with the commodes), not even during hits. The icepicks are annoying though. Do you think I could maybe take one Aleve in the evenings or could this cause rebounds. Remember, during my first go-round with kudzu I was taking extra strength Excedrin for the picks and got terrible rebounds. Don't want to experience that again!
Anyway, today will be 4th day of round two on kudzu. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #404 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 9:15am » |
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Sandy, that is WONDERFUL!! Congratulations. I would recommend taking the kudzu just before your evening attack, or if you get hit while sleeping, take it just before bedtime.
I take my first dose upon awakening, (5:30 a.m.) the second in the evening (around 5 or 6), and the third dose just prior to bedtime. (10:30-11:00)
Very best wishes and PFDAN's!
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seasonalboomer
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #405 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 9:30am » |
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For those of you who've been around a lot longer than I. Is this, as one poster on another string put it, "giddiness" over kudzu, or are you hearing something that is pretty special here?
As we evaluate those that are seeing results, do the factors that contribute to positive results mirror those who see success using the clusterbusters routine? If so, are those clear enough for us to begin building a set of kudzu suggestions that can improve results?
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #406 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 11:48am » |
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on Mar 14th, 2005, 11:57pm, Mr. Happy wrote:
Lay off the magnesium and melatonin. Oh. And the Zonegran. You can always take them again later.
Beta testing is hard work.
RJ |
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Actually....I never stopped my prevents early on and am still weaning off them. I didn't get into this to beta test, I got in it to get relief. Also added magnesium at the same time as kudzu.
Helen and Sandy...glad you guys finally got some relief. 
Edited to add: ...and Karen, too!
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| « Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2005, 6:10pm by nani » |
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jokrs2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #407 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 4:49pm » |
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Hi everyone! The Kudzu is definitely working!!  It's not perfect, but I am having just shadows the last 2 days after increasing my dosage to 2 pills of Planetary Formulas Kudzu Recovery blend 3x daily. Have been taking it for 11 days now. Am supplementing with a good multivitamin with b complex and chromium and taking 6mg of melatonin to aid with sleep. It is a great alternative to what I was taking which was Morphine Sulfate, Imitrex, and Avapro as a preventative. I want to thank everyone who helped make the information about Kudzu possible. My world is getting better and that is priceless to me and my family.
God bless, Joe
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #408 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 5:50pm » |
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Outstanding, Joe!! Congratulations! I hope it just gets better and better.
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Sandy_C
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #409 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 8:19am » |
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Day 4 (yesterday) report - not so good. The day started out wonderful. Everything went great all day - just some small shadows. I followed your advise, Nani, and took my evening dose at 7:30, about an hour before my usual hit time of 8:30. At 8:30 sharp, here comes the CH and it went to a k9 level. Only lasted about 30 minutes, but was really awful. It finally subsided to heavy shadows and some icepicks. At 10:00 I got hit with a k4 (took another dose of zu as soon as it began), which lasted about 15 minutes, and then I went to bed. About midnight hit with a k3 lasting 15 minutes. After that, I was able to go to sleep and slept pretty well.
This morning I have fairly heavy shadows and a few picks here and there. We'll see how day 5 goes. 
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #410 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 9:58am » |
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Sandy I don't think it's all bad from what you're describing. It seems the intensity and duration are diminishing.
As has been adviced before with regards to CH and any treatment, regularity is key. Regular intervals for meals, regular bed time. All with consistency. For sleeping that's where the melatonin helps the most.
I have reduced the amount of kudzu to 1 pill 3x a day. We'll see how it goes. Haven't had more than mild, extremely mild shadows.
I still think that there is a an additive and regulating effect in all this. There must be. I don't know if takes the shrooms, followed by a maintenance dose as soon as the effects wear off in combination of melatonin or any permutation of all or some of those. But ideally our goal should be to ramp down the amount of supplemnts and/or drugs at some point so that the body can take care of itself.
Basically we should use medicine, conventional or alternative to help the body regulate itself.
So how do we do all this. Trial and error. We are bound to make a mistake and find a solution.
Ozzy
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Shiraj
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #411 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 11:48am » |
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hey my cycle is over~! good luck to everyone else
Sandy it sounds like its working for you. I had the same experience the third day of kudzu. Got hit real bad but very quick, like 20 minutes. I think youll be getting relief soon.
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #412 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 12:06pm » |
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That's great, shiraj! Don't go away. Stick around and encourage others.
Hang in there, Sandy ...maybe some change is better than no change. PF vibes and prayers to you!
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LeeS
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #413 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 12:35pm » |
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Just wanted to pop in here to say well done to everyone for experimenting with this, and congratulations to those who have had such good success.
Well done too to Jonathan for identifying the potential for yet another alternative measure that seems to work extremely well.
Shame that there maybe adverse effects when combining kudzu alongside the psilocybin therapy, but I know which route I shall travell should the shrooms become ineffective.
Keep up the good work all, and may it bring you the positive results you deserve.
-Lee
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godsjoy777
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #414 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 2:00pm » |
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Yeah.....I had another full night's sleep....let's see....I think that is 2 or 3 now in a row.... with no cluster....Yesterday was shadowy all day long....but I am better today....KEEPING ON THE KUDZU for awhile longer.....just to be safe......I am like Nani....who knows about the study right now....I am staying taking some meletonin for a bit....Haven't had mush sleep in 6 months...its high time I got some....and the magnesium....I might start to slack off on that too soon....
Congrats to you all for trying this stuff and getting off of as much of the pharmaceuticals as you can....They seem to be the bigger problem.....
Blessings,
Karen
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #415 on: Mar 16th, 2005, 11:24pm » |
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Day 40 on the 'zu
day 5 off lithium completely. It's still working pretty darn good. I continue to take 360 mgs verap (I tried cutting down to 240, but my BP went up) and 300 mgs of Neurontin. On Sat, I took another 300 mg of Neurontin to knock a shadow out, which it did. Now I just wait to take it during a shadow that lasts longer than 20 mins. Still getting occasional shadows during the week and more on weekends, but overall I am very satisfied with how all this is turning out.
Continued good luck wishes to all...
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #416 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 1:30am » |
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To confirm earlier speculation.....
Undertaken for strictly scientific purposes, an experiment was conducted under strict laboratory conditions, testing what effects, if any, kudzu consumption may have upon the actions of psilocybin.
Lab rat consumed 1226mg of Kudzu as prepared by nature's Way Products, Inc. of Springville, Utah, 3 times per day for a period of two days. Following a 4 hour time lapse after the last kudzu treatment, and standard preparation for psilocybin treatment (empty stomach), 1.5g of dried psilocybin mushrooms were consumed by the same lab rat.
Outcome......absolutely no hallucinogenic effects were observed by the test subject. [editor's note: unfortunately had no effect]
Observation: Although the sample size is small (1), the test subject was very experienced in determinating effects of psilocybin. It is this lab rat's opinion that kudzu, as speculated previously, does indeed block the effects of psilocybin. Therefore a suitable and yet to be determined kudzu detox period would have to be observed prior to beginning a psilocybin treatment.
carry on....
Bobw
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jokrs2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #417 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 2:09am » |
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Hi Bob (Pink Floyd)
Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Tangerine Dream, Gong, Pink Floyd and mushrooms, peyote, mescaline, mda or LSD & a bit of bud to mellow the going up....ah those were the days  . I am using the Kudzu right now with good success. Got off Morph. & Trex. I'm hoping that the medicine testers can isolate the actual chemical that helps us in mushrooms, and create a legal med so that I don't have to risk going to jail by picking or getting caught with psilocyben. We have tons of it in Washington State. I helped pick and categorize 25+ varieties that grow here back in the 70's and the information was used to help write a book on identification and dose. I have not done any street drugs for 10 years this July 2nd. I am a stay at home dad with a 12 yr old being home schooled, so I cannot take the risk. Just for my own curiosity, are people actually enjoying the tripping and do any say that they have no problem doing this in front of their kids? Since I'm chronic I feel like I'd be ingesting shrooms constantly....... Best wishes & PFD&N's, Joe
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Lab_Rat
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #418 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 2:36am » |
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Quote: To confirm earlier speculation.....
Undertaken for strictly scientific purposes, an experiment was conducted under strict laboratory conditions, testing what effects, if any, kudzu consumption may have upon the actions of psilocybin.
Lab rat consumed 1226mg of Kudzu as prepared by nature's Way Products, Inc. of Springville, Utah, 3 times per day for a period of two days. Following a 4 hour time lapse after the last kudzu treatment, and standard preparation for psilocybin treatment (empty stomach), 1.5g of dried psilocybin mushrooms were consumed by the same lab rat.
Outcome......absolutely no hallucinogenic effects were observed by the test subject. [editor's note: unfortunately had no effect]
Observation: Although the sample size is small (1), the test subject was very experienced in determinating effects of psilocybin. It is this lab rat's opinion that kudzu, as speculated previously, does indeed block the effects of psilocybin. Therefore a suitable and yet to be determined kudzu detox period would have to be observed prior to beginning a psilocybin treatment.
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Yeah, those goddamn 5-HT2 receptor antagonists like kudzu are always getting in the way of a good high.  
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #419 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 6:28am » |
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on Mar 17th, 2005, 1:30am, Pinkfloyd wrote:To confirm earlier speculation.....
Outcome......absolutely no hallucinogenic effects were observed by the test subject. [editor's note: unfortunately had no effect]
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Wow. So it seems it is the 5-HT2 blocking properties that make kudzu effective. And this gives some support to the idea that a dose of psilocybin works by the short term stimulation/long term down-regulation of the same.
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Sandy_C
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #420 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 8:20am » |
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Day 5 report - Pretty good day yesterday until 5:30 pm. Started getting heavy shadows and small hit, just stuck with ice water and it was gone in a flash. Ate dinner, and took 2 zu at 8:00 in preparation for my usual 8:30 hit. Right on time, CH - but only about a k5 lasting about 20 minutes. Great! Got more low level hits (more than shadows) the rest of the evening, one coming on about 30 minutes after the previous one ended. Took last 2 zu at 10:30 and went to bed. Had two more hits during the night, enough to make me get up and walk around, again only lasting for a few minutes.
I seem to be getting more hits than my normal cycle, but they are less intense and shorter. We'll see how day 6 goes.
Hanging in there! Thanks for your support.
Luv to all
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #421 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 8:37am » |
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Wow, I wonder if kudzu could end a bad (or good) trip or if it has to be pretreated.
To me this suggests that kudzu is a powerful 5-ht2 antagonist. I believe this makes it similar to the atypical antipsychotics[Abilify (aripiprazole), Clozaril (Clozapine), Risperdal (risperidone), Seroquel (Quetiapine)] Quote:One theory of atypicality is that the newer drugs block 5-HT2A receptors at the same time as they block dopamine receptors...
Can J Psychiatry. 2002 Feb;47(1):27-38. |
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www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&do pt=Abstract&list_uids=11873706
Any known effect of kudzu on dopamine receptors? You better start filing for intellectual property rights floridian, you could be in for a big payday...Floridian Pharmaceuticals Inc. 
Jesse
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #422 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 8:38am » |
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Question Bobw...
If kudzu blocked the hallucinogenic effect of psilocybin, does that mean it would automatically block any therapeutic effects? I ask because it seems that it's not neccesary to take enough to get the hallucinigenic effect in order to be therapeutic.
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #423 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 10:01am » |
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on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:37am, JJA wrote:Wow, I wonder if kudzu could end a bad (or good) trip or if it has to be pretreated.
To me this suggests that kudzu is a powerful 5-ht2 antagonist. I believe this makes it similar to the atypical antipsychotics[Abilify (aripiprazole), Clozaril (Clozapine), Risperdal (risperidone), Seroquel (Quetiapine)]
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&do pt=Abstract&list_uids=11873706
Any known effect of kudzu on dopamine receptors? You better start filing for intellectual property rights floridian, you could be in for a big payday...Floridian Pharmaceuticals Inc.
Jesse |
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Yeah, I was thinking it might be like olanzapine, which is consistent with your list of meds that end in -pine. At first, I wasn't sure if it was the serotonin, or the calcium-channel effects, or something else. But if kudzu blocks the hallucinogenic effects of psilocybin, there is a strong effect on the sertonin receptors. It also strongly suggests that kudzu will interfere with the cluster-busting effects of psilocybin. In my opinion, the chance that kudzu blocks only the hallucinogenic effects but not the cluster busting effects is small. It would be great if a combo led to less mental side effects and higher effectiveness. It could happen that way, but that would require a very intricate interaction, I am not holding my breath on that possibility.
No patents here - I want this out in the public domain (as "prior art" - which this long thread clearly establishes) so that it stays innexpensive and is more widely available... even if I have to take a pass on buckets of money. In the spirit of full disclosure, if people click on the amazon.com or vitacost links on the med-owl site, I get a small percent of their purchase as a referral fee. Since starting that affiliate marketing thing, I have made enough to pay half of the website hosting fees for this month (and the month is only half over!). So the universe is coming into balance.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2005, 10:10am by floridian » |
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #424 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 12:57pm » |
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on Mar 17th, 2005, 8:38am, nani wrote:Question Bobw...
If kudzu blocked the hallucinogenic effect of psilocybin, does that mean it would automatically block any therapeutic effects? I ask because it seems that it's not neccesary to take enough to get the hallucinigenic effect in order to be therapeutic. |
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First, thanks Jesse and Floridian...
Yes it is getting very interesting. I had (and still do) have hopes that these two treatments could become companion treatments and help those people that both treatments fall a little short of complete/quick success. Finding out kudzu's effects on the dopamine receptors will provide additional helpful information in this regard.
Nani,
My guess is that this blockage would stop all "clusterbusting" effects of psilocybin. Both by ways of available scientific information we have and by means of my own experience. There is a distinct reaction that occurs for some of us where it "feels" as if more is being done than just the hallucinogenic effects during a treatment. Besides the normal hallucinogenic effects some of us encounter, there are certain signs we feel are evidence that the cluster mechanism itself is being changed. A feeling where all pressure and pain seems to actually drain away. Although not in cycle, the kudzu actually produced a low level headache that was concentrated along the trigeminal nerve. The psilocybin never touched this pain.
Although it is true that for many people, taking enough psilocybin to produce a noticeable "trip" is not needed to be effective in breaking a cycle, the fact remains that although you may not experience any hallucinogenic effects, the same mechanisms are still taking place. The same receptor activity is taking place, just not to an extent that you notice it.
An analogy would be the old tree in the forest question. If no one hears it fall...did it fall? Of course it fell, you just didn't hear it fall.
It appears, that kudzu blocks all the 5HT activity (at least in the subset(s) that are involved in clusters) of the psilocybin although its too early to tell for sure and 1 test does not make for any absolutes.
So, to answer your question..LOL...it appears that it WILL block the therapeutic effects of the psilocybin, even for those people that only need very low doses of psilocybin.
Whether it (kudzu) would halt these effects if taken after psilocybin is injested, as Jesse wondered, is a good question and an important one that needs to be answered at some point. My guess is that it would not. My hope is that it would not. If it doesn't, kudzu just might be something people can begin taking after only one psilocybin treatment to help bring about a faster end to the cycle. It may even "lock-in" the changes made by that one treatment. The problem is, it would need to be tested and by people IN a cycle. If it stops the therapeutic effects, it would slow down the process and the person would again have to detox, this time from kudzu, to get back to the psilocybin effectiveness. Even that wouldn't give us all the answers or anything definative. It could be that that person just wasn't going to be helped by psilocybin and the kudzu wasn't responsible. OTOH, some people only need one psilocybin treatment. Would the person switching to kudzu after one treatment have broken the cycle without the kudzu?
Still a long way to go. Lots of questions and the answers will take time. In the mean time, people are being helped. The answers will help refine treatments and help more people.
Bobw
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test rss