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Topic: 5-HT activity in Kudzu (Read 32686 times) |
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Mr. Happy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #425 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 12:23am » |
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on Mar 15th, 2005, 11:48am, nani wrote:| I didn't get into this to beta test, I got in it to get relief. |
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Tuff darts. You're part of the test crowd.
on Mar 17th, 2005, 12:57pm, Pinkfloyd wrote:| The problem is, it would need to be tested and by people IN a cycle. |
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Beta testing is hard work.
Praise them with great praise.
RJ
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #426 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 12:28am » |
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on Mar 18th, 2005, 12:23am, Mr. Happy wrote:
Tuff darts. You're part of the test crowd.
RJ
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Pinkfloyd
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #427 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 1:00am » |
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on Mar 18th, 2005, 12:23am, Mr. Happy wrote:
Tuff darts. You're part of the test crowd.
Beta testing is hard work.
Praise them with great praise.
RJ
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I was part of that Beta crowd about 25 years ago. Bought a top'a'da'line (that's Italian for expensive) Beta Camera that took two people to carry...and a Beta Player/Recorder system. Now have a camera, player and about 150 Beta tapes of great events and of my family that I can't watch because I can't get my player repaired. D a m n VHS. Who woulda thunk it.
Next thing ya know they'll be replacing VHS with discs or something.
;-(
Bobw
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Bob P
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #428 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 7:08am » |
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Quote:| Next thing ya know they'll be replacing VHS with discs or something. |
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In case ya ever wonder if it's worth while to pay someone to transfer your tapes to disc, I've been doing mine myself.
Play the tape and capture it on the computer.
Edit.
Transcode it to DVD.
Burn it.
A 2 hour VHS tape takes about 10-12 hours to move to DVD!
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catlind
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #429 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 8:02am » |
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on Mar 18th, 2005, 7:08am, Bob P wrote:
A 2 hour VHS tape takes about 10-12 hours to move to DVD! |
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Egads, this funky little machine I have that's called a DVR/VHS recorder does it in the time it takes to play the movie, I pop in the vhs on the vhs side and blank disc on the DVD side and in 1.5-2.5 hours I have a DVD 
Going to do the VHS tapes from the NY convention with Dr. Bigal and Lori Choyce speaking if I can ever find the cassette thingy for the video recorder.
So far the kudzu has made no change at all with my head, I can't claim success or failure though because I haven't taken it regularly enough to really give any useful data.
Wish it would have worked for the hot flashes though.
Cat
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Sandy_C
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #430 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 8:23am » |
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Day 6 report - Ok - things seem to be improving. Good day yesterday - nothing at all during the day. Got my usual 8:30 pm hit, mild and short, with another hit around 10:30. Went to bed at 11:00. Woke up about 2:00 am with a runny right nostril and watery right eye, but no HA. Interesting???
Nose is still a bit drippy, but I sure can sure live with that. Actually got a pretty good night's sleep. Let's see what today (day 7) brings.
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #431 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 8:41am » |
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on Mar 18th, 2005, 8:02am, catlind wrote:
Wish it would have worked for the hot flashes though.
Cat |
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Hot flashes and some of the heat/pain of clusters are linked to the same neurotransmitter, CGRP. It can be reduced by keishi-bukuryo-gan, a japanese herb combo that includes cinnamon, peony, tree peony, poria mushroom and peach seed.
Quote:Maturitas. 2003 Jul 25;45(3):199-204.
Menopausal hot flash and calciotonin gene-related peptide; effect of Keishi-bukuryo-gan, a kampo medicine, related to plasma calciotonin gene-related peptide level.
Chen JT, Shiraki M. JT Chen Clinic, Sunbright Twin 3F, 2-46-1 Honcho, Nakano-Ku, Tokyo 164-0012, Japan.
OBJECTIVES: The purpose of this study is to investigate relationship of menopausal hot flash and calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP). Furthermore, this study evaluated the effect of the Japanese herbal (kampo) medicine Keishi-bukuryo-gan from the aspect of CGRP regulation. METHODS: Plasma CGRP and vasoactive intestinal peptide (VIP) levels were measured during hot flash and CGRP reactivity was studied by cold load test in subjects with/without hot flashes. The effect of Keishi-bukuryo-gan was assessed in comparison with plasma CGRP level. RESULTS: Only plasma CGRP but not VIP significantly elevated at the occurrence of hot flash (P=0.002). Stress by cold load significantly enhanced the over-secretion of CGRP in subjects with flash compared with those without flash (P=0.003) 3 min after the load. Keishi-bukuryo-gan decreased plasma CGRP level in subjects with hot flash. CONCLUSIONS: CGRP but not VIP was mainly related to the occurrence of hot flash. Keishi-bukuryo-gan, Japanese herbal medicine, improves hot flash possibly affecting plasma CGRP level. |
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Quote:J Pharmacol Sci. 2003 Sep;93(1):80-6.
Effects of 17 beta-estradiol and the Japanese herbal medicine Keishi-bukuryo-gan on the release and synthesis of calcitonin gene-related peptide in ovariectomized rats.
Noguchi M, Ikarashi Y, Yuzurihara M, Kase Y, Takeda S, Aburada M. Tsumura Research Institute Medical Evaluation Laboratory, Inashiki-gun, Ibaraki, Japan. noguchi_masamichi@mail.tsumura.co.jp
The purpose of this study is to clarify the effects of 17beta-estradiol and the Japanese herbal medicine Keishi-bukuryo-gan on the release and synthesis of calcitonin gene-related peptide (CGRP) in ovariectomized (OVX) rats. The effect of ovariectomy on the release or synthesis was evaluated by measuring CGRP concentration in plasma after capsaicin (1.0 mg/kg, i.p.) injection or by measuring CGRP concentration and its mRNA expression in dorsal root ganglia in OVX rats. Ovariectomy attenuated the capsaicin-evoked increase in plasma concentration of CGRP, which was restored by treatment with 17beta-estradiol (0.010 mg/kg, s.c.) or Keishi-bukuryo-gan (1000 mg/kg, p.o.) for 7 days after ovariectomy. However, no significant differences were observed in the CGRP concentration and the mRNA expression of dorsal root ganglia by treating the rats with ovariectomy, 17 beta-estradiol, and Keishi-bukuryo-gan. These results suggest not only that estrogen deficiency attenuates CGRP release but also that 17beta-estradiol or Keishi-bukuryo-gan normalizes the attenuated release process. |
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catlind
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #432 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 9:20am » |
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on Mar 18th, 2005, 8:41am, floridian wrote:
Hot flashes and some of the heat/pain of clusters are linked to the same neurotransmitter, CGRP. It can be reduced by keishi-bukuryo-gan, a japanese herb combo that includes cinnamon, peony, tree peony, poria mushroom and peach seed.
These results suggest not only that estrogen deficiency attenuates CGRP release but also that 17beta-estradiol or Keishi-bukuryo-gan normalizes the attenuated release process.
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Ok, help me understand this a bit...they did a fully hysterectomy (including ovaries) to 'fix' my headaches. Is the attenuation of the CGRP then good or bad? I'd hate to think after all this time they might actually have been on to something without knowing it...
I don't quite understand the whole CGRP relationship, but from everything I've read so far it certainly has some promise for treating headaches.
There's more alphabet soup in this stuff than in Campbells.
Cat
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #433 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 10:14am » |
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on Mar 17th, 2005, 12:57pm, Pinkfloyd wrote:
Whether it (kudzu) would halt these effects if taken after psilocybin is injested, as Jesse wondered, is a good question and an important one that needs to be answered at some point. My guess is that it would not. My hope is that it would not. If it doesn't, kudzu just might be something people can begin taking after only one psilocybin treatment to help bring about a faster end to the cycle. It may even "lock-in" the changes made by that one treatment. The problem is, it would need to be tested and by people IN a cycle. If it stops the therapeutic effects, it would slow down the process and the person would again have to detox, this time from kudzu, to get back to the psilocybin effectiveness. Even that wouldn't give us all the answers or anything definative. It could be that that person just wasn't going to be helped by psilocybin and the kudzu wasn't responsible. OTOH, some people only need one psilocybin treatment. Would the person switching to kudzu after one treatment have broken the cycle without the kudzu?
Bobw
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Bob,
That is exactly my theory as I mentioned in my previous post. There are some cases where the psilocybin treatment for chronics works only for a while, then a further dose is needed.
In some cases, a chronics have obtained excellent results with minimal psilocybin doses every day for a week with PF time afterwards
When the CH countering effects of psilocybin start wearing off, I would be inclined to think, since the 5-HT receptors are , uhm, receptive, Kudzu may be more effective in prolonging the PF time.
I also have the feeling that kudzu may have some residual additive effects or like floridian especulates, down-regulating effects. Thst would indeed be fantastic. At some point you stop taking all forms of drugs. Supplements or pharmaceuticals, or "alternative.."
As a further point. The half life of kudzu seems to be relatively short. As I reported earlier, when kudzu was taken in conjuction with Imitrex (by my wife). Imitrex did not work. Four hours later a further dose of Imitrex, worked as it had in the past.
Lots to think about.
Ozzy
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floridian
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #434 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 10:35am » |
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on Mar 18th, 2005, 9:20am, catlind wrote:
Ok, help me understand this a bit...they did a fully hysterectomy (including ovaries) to 'fix' my headaches. Is the attenuation of the CGRP then good or bad? I'd hate to think after all this time they might actually have been on to something without knowing it...
There's more alphabet soup in this stuff than in Campbells.
Cat |
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In the lab experiment, they ovarectimized the mice or rats because that makes hot flashes worse - without estrogen, the CGRP gets out of whack (as it does in menopause). Giving the lab animals either estrogen or the herb formula restored the CGRP levels.
Not 100% sure, but as I understand it, in hot flashes, CGRP is abnormally low most of the time, then spikes with the hot flashes... it is a regulation problem. So a CGRP inhibitor might abort a hot flash (or cluster or migraine), while something that increases CGRP might prevent those symptoms if it led to normal levels and no sudden fluctuations.
After ovarectomy or menopause, things might eventually settle back into balance. Both testosterone and testosterone blocking drugs have been used to treat clusters. So it is possible that estrogenic and anti-estrogenic treatments could help with clusters if they reduce the fluctuations of CGRP and other messengers.
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godsjoy777
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #435 on: Mar 18th, 2005, 5:28pm » |
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OK Y'all....Its Friday and my brain is tired 
Update....I am surely in uncharted territory....Just as I thought things were getting better with 2-3 nights PAIN FREE.....I got hit the last 2 nights like before....3 X per night....sigh....Thank God for the O2....
I do know that the office has been sooooo hectic that I haven't been drinking the water I have needed to and the mid day Kudzu gets pushed back to evening and I might have even skipped it once.....aaaarrrggghs! Trying again to stay more regular with it and the water.....water,water,water.....I wonder if this is what it feels like to be chronic.......a couple of Pain free days then wham! I've been shadowy all day too.....
So....I am also going through "the change"....What is that chinese herb?.....or did someone say the Kudzu should help with the hot flashes too....? Feelin' like a mess....soooooo tired....but happy to be among such a great group....Hope to meet some of y'all in Dallas this Summer.....It will be good for my husband to meet some of you too and their supporters too...
Blessings,
Karen
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sundancer
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #436 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:43am » |
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My CH are epi. and started 30 years ago, triggers are heat, exercise and alcohol. Usually come in July during hot and humid weather, skipped last year...and hit this yr. in Feb. Prednisone has worked for 20 years, but my dr. won't let me take it after a weird side effect during the last cluster attack.
A week ago started on Neurontin, 100 mg. 3X pd., disalcid (salsalate) 750 mg. 3X pd, and O2 which I've used in the past to abort. Tues. of this week I started taking Kudzu (Solaray) 150 mg. 3X pd.
Since prednisone got rid of the HA, I don't know what normal CH pattern is for me. But for the last four nights it's been like this.....Go to bed sleep for one hr. hit with HA, use O2, pain for 10-15 min. kip 3-4, then sleep 45 minutes, hit again...etc. etc. all night long.
Usually before I start the pred. I'll have kip 9-10 for a hr. which wakes me. I've never experienced all night long, off and on like this. During the day, icepick pains, shadows and some ear pain. Called the dr. yesterday and she said to increase the neurontin to 300 mg. at night.
I've tried various other meds. verap. which shut my liver down, and can't take trex due to a heart prob.
So folks, what do you think? I saw a post from Sandy where she talks about nearly the same symptoms and someone suggested Kudzu might be changing the CH. Should I increase the Kudzu?
It's getting difficult to think during the day, I'm' exhausted....but thank god having but a few short kip 8's. Any comments would be appreciated.
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Sandy_C
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #437 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 12:15pm » |
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Sundancer
I started on Kudzu last Saturday, 3/13. My usual pattern was to have one big K8-9 hit every evening lasting for 45 minutes to an hour, with more during the night. After starting the zu, the pattern changed to getting low k level hits during the day with shadows and picks, my usual 8:30 pm hit and still some at night. But, the 8:30 hits were low k3-4 lasting only about 15 minutes. These were followed up with more hits every 30 to 45 minutes after the last one ended, going on into the night.
For the last three days, I've been playing with the dosage and timing of the zu. I was taking 1 Nature's Way 613 mg capsule every four hours all day long. I stopped taking the morning dose, took 1 at 2:00 pm, 1 at 4:00 pm, 2 at 8:00 pm (half hour before my usual hit time), and 2 more right before bed. I now have no daytime hits or shadows. I still get my 8:30 hit but it is still low k3-4 with no follow up hits. I've had one very tiny hit during the night, just enough to wake me up. Drink some ice water and go back to sleep. Things are definitely improving for me.
Hang in there! I think your body has to build up some zu in it before you actually see improvement. At first, things seem to be worse, but it gets better - at least it is for me.
Wishing you PFDAN
Sandy
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PaulL
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #438 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 3:26pm » |
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Sandy,
You may want to move your evening dose of kudzu to 7:30pm to give it more time to get into your blood stream. With luck that will kill the 8:30 hit entirely. From another thread with a kudzu/trex experiment (I'm too lazy to find it) there seems to be about a four hour life for the kudzu's effectiveness so you wouldn't want to make the dose much earlier than that.
It's interesting that the 'zu doesn't change the timing of the attacks. I've had plenty of medications that moved them around. Another piece of the puzzle about how it works.
I hope that this helps to make you completely pain free,
Paul
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hzzz
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My experience so far with Kudzu
« Reply #439 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 3:43pm » |
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I started taking Kudzu 8 days ago. I took two pills of the Nature's Way at 6am, 3pm and 9pm. No hits, but lots of shadows the first 4 days.
Day 5 I had one middle of the road attack. Day 6 no attacks and then last night one monster that may be the first one ever in which I've ever been in so much pain that I've almost thrown up and/or passed out. I layed over the toilet for over 30 minutes before I went and grabbed my Imitrex. Pain lasted another 30 minutes or so, but it got back to bearable.
Today, just some shadows. I think I might try taking the 2nd dosage later in the day like others have suggested and then the last dose right a bedtime. I also wonder if I shouldn't try an extra pill at bedtime instead of just two.
Overall, I am still very happy with the Kudzu. Cycle started about 3 weeks ago (usually last 5-8weeks) and I was getting three hits a day, so two in 8 days is a huge improvement. I will definitly stay on the Kudzu unless something horrible happens.
The only other things I am taking are 9 mg of Melatonin at bedtime and Imitrex for attacks. Not sure if I've really seen any improvement with the Melatonin.
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #440 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 5:08pm » |
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Glad to hear you're getting some relief, Hzzz, though sorry to hear about the intense attack that slipped through.
The one thing about CH, is that no single thing works for everyone. I tried melatonin last cycle, and all it did was make me feel like I'd been hit by a bus, the next morning. I was still having my two visits each night from the beastie, so I quit messing with it.
I've been taking the kudzu with my multivitamin upon awakening, then again in late afternoon/early evening, and then taking the last dose just prior to sleep. Being faithful with this dose and schedule has kept me pain-free for about two weeks, now. (aside from some very mild hits, and the occasional feeling of pressure)
Last night, I told my wife that I was feeling "clustery." She laughed and asked what that meant, and I said that it felt like I was on the verge of an attack, but the attack itself wouldn't manifest. I felt pressure in my neck, and sort of a "gathering pressure" around my head on the right side, but fortunately, it dissipated.
Hang in there. I hope you don't get hit anymore. PFDAN's.
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cynthy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #441 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 11:18pm » |
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Day three for me on the kudzu,
And have not hit a kip 10 in 2 days !!! I also take the imitrex tabs, no way I could work without it,, at least 6 hours pf,, has anyone else tried the kudzu with imitrex ? I have not taken any imitrex today (the weekend and no work) just the kudzu and have not had a kip 10 all day !!! i have been chronic for about 7 years , and have been on too many medications, with no relief (except prednisone)
Is there such a thing as taking too much kudzu? I have the solaray and have taken 8 capsules since 3:00 yesterday morning (i work graveyard) so it is not quite 24 hours.
Just want to say, even though its been years since i have posted this board has been my lifeline.. Thank-you all for being here..
cindy
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cynthy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #442 on: Mar 20th, 2005, 8:09am » |
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Guess i spoke to soon,
woke at 2am with a kip 5-7, 02 helped and went back to sleep until 4am when the beast reared its ugly head and got hit with a 10, wasn't about to sleep after that one, I was reading thru the past posts, and maybe instead of taking the solaray 165 mgs, two tabs 3 or 4 times daily, should try the natures way at 613 mg,
will let you all know,
pfd to all
cindy
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hzzz
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #443 on: Mar 20th, 2005, 7:45pm » |
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Hasn't been a good day for me. Two large hits. I am upping the Kudzu to 3 pills three times daily and seeing what happens. Imitrex doesn't seem to do its normal thing with already taking the Kudzu.
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cynthy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #444 on: Mar 20th, 2005, 8:03pm » |
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This day ranks right up there with one of the worst, am so tired, tried to sleep but got hit almost everyhour or so with kip 10's,, not sure what to do now,, will try the imitrex maybe will sleep then. was too tired to go out for the natures way kudzu but still took the solaray,
happy for all those that have had success with this, I will still try but right now am just too tired.
cindy
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Mr. Happy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #445 on: Mar 20th, 2005, 10:05pm » |
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on Mar 20th, 2005, 8:03pm, cynthy wrote:| I will still try but right now am just too tired. |
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Mr. Happy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #446 on: Mar 20th, 2005, 10:07pm » |
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Really.
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #447 on: Mar 21st, 2005, 2:24am » |
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This is day 25 on the Kudzu for me.
I increased the dosage to 2 capsules, 3 x's a day, on March 6th. I originally was only taking 3 a day.
Excluding three or four healthy shadows, I have not had my nightly CH visits. The shadows came at the same time of night that I usually awake with a CH. I did increase the Melatonin after the 1st bad shadow, but that proved hazardous. The Melatonin seemed to increase the pain level of the shadows. I have since discontinued the Melatonin altogether. I can live with the shadows....it seems they are gone before I really wake up.
I take my 1st dose about 11 a.m.....2nd dose around 6 p.m.....and the 3rd right before bed.
Seems to be working very well for me....
Jean
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Sandy_C
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #448 on: Mar 21st, 2005, 8:24am » |
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I'm never going to post good news again, like things are improving. Seems every time I do, the beast says "Oh yeah, take this" and I get nailed.
Saturday was a set back day for me. My 8:30 pm hit came as usual, but reached a k9 level, lasting about an hour,with another k7 hit coming about 30 minutes after the first one ended. Heavy shadows all night long - very little sleep. l What sleep I did get was on the couch so as not to keep my husband awake.
Sunday was better, although I was sooooo tired. Tried taking a nap in the afternoon, but the minute I laid my head down started feeling the pressure and icepicks so had to stay upright. Also, did a little yardwork, raking leaves and had to stop. Seems just that little exercise started the CH. At 6:30 pm, while preparing a really nice dinner, CH started. I decided "screw it", and went for the trex so that I could at least sit down and eat with my hubby. Trex worked fine. Got another k5 hit at 9:30 but was able to ease it down with one Aleve. Slept fairly well last night with some shadows and picks but no hits.
I'll still keep trying the Kudzu, but when I've got something important that I've got to be able to do (like eat), I'm going to go for the trex. I'm now in my 5th week and I'm really getting p----d off at this, as well as dragging my a$$ around because I'm so tired. It's discouraging.
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Major
New Board Newbie
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
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Posts: 22
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #449 on: Mar 21st, 2005, 10:55am » |
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My husband is now onto his third bottle - getting to be on first name terms with the local health food store guy! Tried to taper last week - first day some tolerable shadows, second day more shadows, third day evening hit. It wasn't as bad as those pre-zu, didn't need the 02, but definately up there in intensity.
Started back on the kudzu, and next day was happily again back to PF. Life is good. 
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| « Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2005, 10:56am by Major » |
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