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Topic: 5-HT activity in Kudzu (Read 32685 times) |
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #575 on: Apr 20th, 2005, 4:58pm » |
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on Apr 19th, 2005, 11:00pm, Alien Space Babe wrote:Hi all,
I just heard from Lizzie2.
Apparently there can be some complications from kudzu use. She's been using kudzu for about a week. Last night she had extensive bleeding .... they had to do the sinus surgery again this afternoon. The docs said the inside of her nose is mush, and that kudzu is probably the culprit because it is a vasodilator.
So, this post has 2 purposes:
1. be careful with kudzu if you're using aspirin or any other blood thinner
2. vibes for Lizzie2
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Mush?!! Are you kidding me, KUDZU made the inside of her nose MUSH!!!!!
That is such an irresponsible statement. So....., none of her other medications could have been the culprit? or... none of the interactions of them with kudzu? Just kudzu, eh?
I am a strong believer in talking things over with your Doc, before taking any meds or supplements. Particularly if you are taking other medications. Don't just start taking it.
Flash made an excellent point on a different thread, "detox" before you take something new, that may interact.
I hope Carrie feels better, heals soon.
Ozzy
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Lizzie2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #576 on: Apr 20th, 2005, 5:18pm » |
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You can read what I wrote over on the general board about it, but basically it was mush in that, they could not identify a single blood vessel that was leaking.
It was oozing out of just about every blood vessel they could see, so they were cauterizing what they could.
This is a month and a half out of surgery, which is less than .01% of having a bleed like I had at this point, and nothing has changed except the addition of Kudzu.
I should never have taken it, and now I can't ever.
I had just about every nurse, doctor, pharmacist, etc looking up info on it, and they feel the vasodilator properties can be dangerous for people with any sort of potential for a bleed. Not enough known and no warnings.
The hematologist was pretty annoyed that I had taken it at all.
Anyways...you can read what I wrote on the general board.
It isn't just because I had surgery recently. I never would have bled if I hadn't taken that. And I've been off almost all of my other meds for awhile now.
I would just be more careful...for anyone that even takes a baby aspirin a day. There are more risks than we'll ever know until this happens to more people, I guess.
JMHO after spending the last 2 days in bloody hell.
Carrie
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #577 on: Apr 20th, 2005, 6:29pm » |
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Carrie, I hope you don't mind, but I'm copying and pasting your crisis info from the General board here. I think it's important to have all that info in this thread. Feel better soon, hun!
From Lizzie2's post:
Yeah big problems. The ENT nurse practitioner wants me to write an article on what I went through because of how dangerous it was.
Keep in mind, my sinus surgery was March 8. My ENT attending told me that he has only had like 3 patients out of 3000 have a bleed this far out after surgery.
I worked in the ER on Monday night from 3-11. I laid down after that, and at around 12:30, I felt what I thought was just sinus drainage. I got up and began having a massive hemorrhage.
I went through an entire thing of tissues, 3 wash cloths, washed the sink out 4 times from all the blood everywhere. I called my best friend to come over from the ER to help me get there.
I got to the ER and once taken back to a room, the bleed got even worse. Huge clots were coming out. I was choking and coughing up huge clots even. I went through an entire package (big pack!) of 4x4's and filled a bin with them saturated with blood and the clots.
At one point, a nurse in the ER rolled up a gauze pad and put it in the left side of my nose. All the bleeding kept going through it and down my throat, too. The resident came in awhile after that and said he had to see, so he handed me some gauze to hold under my nose, and he pulled it out...telling me it was going to be okay the entire time as I was gagging on all the bleeding and clots. Blood was going everywhere.
So an ENT resident came down. He went ahead and tried suctioning out some clots to see where the bleed was coming from. Let me tell you how that's not a fun experience.
Finally he got it more or less controlled with some dissolvable packing, and I was admitted.
It dripped most all day yesterday, but not bad. I was taken to the OR in the early evening. Apparently the surgery was quick. They couldn't find a single burst vessel...apparently there was oozing everywhere, so they cauterized several places.
They kept me overnight last night because of the timing of the surgery, etc. I had a little more bleeding last night. I've had nurses, pharmacists, doctors, etc in on the search for info about Kudzu and bleeding. It isn't just a matter that I had surgery recently, because it was over a month and a half ago.
Turns out, although it won't show up in any clotting time studies, this stuff can make you bleed like crazy. The vasodilation properties combined with someone who may be susceptible make it a pretty high bleed risk.
The docs were adamant that I not take it again (which sucked because it was actually helping a little), and then they said they really hope more people will be more careful because even if you're on a baby aspirin, a bleed could be a big risk. Thank goodness it wasn't intracranial...cuz that would've been the end.
I know most of you feel pretty adamant that it's safe, but just remember that herbs are drugs without FDA approval. The hematologist was angry that I had taken it. I heard him saying that he has arguments with the alt med practice about prescribing herbs for treatment because of this sort of thing. There's no warning out there that it can cause that sort of bleeding problem.
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #578 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 11:46am » |
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So. I'm going to re-state what I said.
Don't take any meicine, herbal, FDA approved, over, under the counter, etc without consulting with your doctor(s) as the case may be.
If you have many medications that you're on, it's probably not wise to "experiment" with herbal medication(s)
Listen to your body.
There are exceptions to every rule. The fact that it works for so many of us, doesn't mean it will work for all.
Everyone that hasn't tried Kudzu yet, and is considering it, read everything. Make an informed decision.
Ozzy
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Lizzie2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #579 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 12:29pm » |
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And just to reiterate...
I'm one of the few who actually DID consult with my doctor before starting Kudzu.
He read all about it in my neuro appt before saying that he thought it was okay to try.
Bad things happen, and as I've said before...herbs are just medications without FDA labels. They have side effects, interactions, precautions, and can kill you in certain situations...just like regular drugs can.
Just because they are "all natural" does NOT make them safe.
And yes, I asked my doctor. And I'm on hardly any medication at all right now.
You just never know.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #580 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 1:08pm » |
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Okay, so now that we're building some data, can anyone with a little more in-depth knowledge of common treatment (pharma's) begin to build a warning sheet? It's not as though the physician community is going to write one for us.
Examples:
- If you are taking any of the following drugs, ________, it may be best to either postpone taking kudzu, or detox from these meds before you begin your kudzu trial.
- If you are a hemophiliac, don't take kudzu.
- If you are taking blood-thinning medications, it would be advised that you don't take kudzu
- If you have abnormal blood pressure, kudzu may not be recommended.
Anyone disagree or want to add to this and make it more accurate and complete.
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nani
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #581 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 1:17pm » |
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Sandy and Frank, thanks for the wishes. 
Scott: I'm not sure abnormal BP is an issue as much as low BP. It may actually be helpful for high BP.
Also, pregnant and nursing women shouldn't use it because of the phyto-estrogens.
Beyond that, I don't know. I guess this is the peril of beta testing....we just don't know.
I do not plan on stopping it anytime soon. Even with my shadows and occasional "odd" hit, it's given me my life back.
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Lizzie2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #582 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 2:12pm » |
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-Blood thinning medications...to elaborate...include aspirin (yes, even the baby ones), NSAIDS of any type, and corticosteroids. There are a variety of meds that act as blood thinners without actually being labelled as such. The heavy hitters are coumadin and some others, but believe it or not...during my whole ordeal, I was still given sub-cutaneous heparin injections because they said that would have absolutely no effect on what had happened with the bleed. Plus due to the fact that I was having surgery and have a past history of DVTs, I have to get the heparin shots.
-Another risk is recent (I can't figure how recent...would have thought I'd have been okay) surgery or future surgery. ALL herbal medications need to be stopped 2 weeks to one month prior to surgery, depending on the surgery type, your doctor's advisement, and your own medical history. Even vitamins/supplements have to be stopped before surgery. It's some serious stuff...Nobody wants to bleed out on the table.
And in the case of recent surgery...you don't want to bleed out before you ever GET to the table.
Can't tell ya how recent...that one will be up for grabs.
Carrie
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #583 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 2:50pm » |
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Carrue,
I disagree, once more. ALL NSAIDS are blood thinners? Tylenol is not. Ibuprofen is not. Naproxen is not.
Some of them may interact with warfarin and even those studies are inconclusive.
Amazing, they made stop taking kudzu because of it's blood thinning properties, and they gave you subcutaneous blood thinning medication. Powerful one at that.
Funny fact I found. Aspirin's fever reducing effect works through the hypothalamus by ...get this...vasodilation...
Ozzy
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Lizzie2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #584 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 2:58pm » |
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Pardon me, Ozzy...
I had meant to write something aside about tylenol, but then I got distracted by reading info on the hematology site here.
Tylenol is the only OTC med that surgery allows patients to take here due to risk of bleeding.
I was not allowed to take ibuprofin, toradol, naproxyn, or any other NSAID other than tylenol.
Heparin has a different MOA which would not cause an actual bleeding disorder like that which I had. All of the nurses and doctors were telling me that just is showing the potency of the Kudzu and other meds. I've been shot up full of heparin lots of times and never had any massive hemorrhages from it.
But again, I don't have the energy right now to look it all up because I still feel like shit.
Taking a nap now.
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Margi
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #585 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 3:11pm » |
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I always thought heparin was an anti-clotting med, as opposed to a thinning med.
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seasonalboomer
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #587 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 3:44pm » |
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Carrie,
Which brand were you using? Solaray? Natures Way? Was it "pure" or a blend with other herbals? i'm not trying to weasel Kudzu out of being the factor in your episode but all info is better than none. Outside of your physicians I would find it hard to believe another doctor in the country is going to know this info and if we can compile it, at least someone can have it.
Scott
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Lizzie2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #588 on: Apr 21st, 2005, 5:23pm » |
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Scott,
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. I really did fall asleep almost immediately after my last post. Despite whatever arguments there are for and against Kudzu, I still feel pretty horrible from the entire incident.
So anyways...what I take is not a blend. It's the nature's way Kudzu root. I believe those are the 613mg capsules? I took two capsules twice a day.
Now I need to stay awake long enough to take a 2 hour exam online and I will probably go play in the pharmacology section of our online databases here at school.
Just an FYI about heparin...some of you may recall the pictures of what my stomach looked like back in January once I got out of the hospital. That was my major prophylactic for getting more clots. At one point, there was blood oozing from each of the heparin sites...even ones older than 24 hours. I asked the nurse if she should check a PTT (clotting time test for heparin), and she said that it doesn't affect clotting enough to change that value. It would be an entirely different story if you were on a heparin IV drip.
I'll fill out Floridian's survey later because I did take it for longer than a week, and it really was helping both my migraine and cluster...so it's a shame I ran into that mess. This morning, my neuro put me on doxepin, which is another tricyclic antidepressant. 
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dougchunyo
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #589 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 7:53am » |
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Overreactions, positive or negative can be a very bad thing.
I tried the kudzu in lieu of shrooms because of the long growing time for shrooms. It worked very well for me, my cycle has ended a little sooner than would have been expected without the zu. So I should follow the advice of one person who had a very bad experience and not do it again? I think not.
Doctors in our society are held in an awe that is not deserved. Lizzie2's reaction may have little to do with zu regardless of what her dr says. I doubt the medical professionals really know what the cause was. But the zu being the only thing they can think of to blame, the blame is placed there.
Association does not equal causation. For example, the zu that she was taking could easily have had a potentiating effect on something else she was on. Meaning the zu could have multiplied the effect of a blood thinner or other med she was taking causing her bleed.
I don't know, but I'd bet the doctors either. Just as it would be wrong to say that zu is the wonder drug for CH based on my experience, so also is it equally wrong to say that zu is extremely dangerous because one person had a bad experience. To quote a very good friend of mine who is a doctor, "most people will get better or worse in spite of everything we do for them."
Care should be exercised by anyone putting anything into their bodies and equal care should be exercised when talking about any effects. I certainly hope she does not write any article about what happened unless she also includes information from the dozens who have taken the zu with no ill effects.
I also hope she gets better and finds relief for her CH, just (in her case) that probably won't be zu.
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Jeepgun
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #590 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 8:57am » |
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Well stated, Doug.
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JJA
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #591 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 8:59am » |
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on Apr 21st, 2005, 2:12pm, Lizzie2 wrote:| during my whole ordeal, I was still given sub-cutaneous heparin injections because they said that would have absolutely no effect on what had happened with the bleed. Plus due to the fact that I was having surgery and have a past history of DVTs, I have to get the heparin shots. |
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I'm confused. Were you getting heparin shots between the surgery and the "nose bleed"? Were you taking heparin and kudzu at the same time?
Jesse
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #592 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:10am » |
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Doug,
Thank you. My point exactly (though, mine wasn't that clear).
Ozzy
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Lizzie2
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #593 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:22am » |
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Ozzy,
What bothers me most about the things you have said is that you act like it is complete BS that the Kudzu could have done that to me, and that it is still perfectly safe, despite it all.
Granted I am one person. And Wendy has spoken of 2 others who have had complications in the UK, although we do not know the nature of the incidents.
Just because one person had a reaction and nobody else did, does not mean we should write that off as insignificant. I was lucky the bleed was where it happened to occur instead of internal, or I wouldn't be alive right now.
Of course I don't advocate that everyone should stop Kudzu. However, they really need to look at things more carefully. I don't know what made me more susceptible to that bleed. I was taking less verapamil than almost anyone else here at the time, and the only triptan I take is Amerge...and I dont' even take it once a day, let alone several times a day as some do.
The fact that I don't know what made me more susceptible, and there is no hard evidence of side effects from certain medications is what scares and frightens me.
Yes they labeled Kudzu as the inciting incident. Why would they not? All evidence pointed to that. They had the bottle; they did all kinds of research; they know my past medical history and current medications. They went into the surgery to do some exploring to find out what, exactly, may have caused the bleeding, and what they saw lead them to discover that it was not the result of something "normal" - but rather something I had added. Otherwise my body wouldn't have reacted that way. Just about a week before that incident, I went to the ENT (had no bleeding for the past 2 weeks), and he said everything looked well on the way to healing and perfectly healthy.
That's a far cry from how he wound up having to describe it once I was brought into the OR.
JJA, to answer you question. I was given sub-cutaneous heparin once I was admitted to the hospital. I was off Kudzu already. Any explanation I make here isn't going to make much sense without going into a long drawn out pharmacological post. However, sub-cu heparin is a prevention for blood clots, and does not thin the blood to the point where that type of bleeding would have occurred. Besides the fact that I received 3 sub-cu doses...one on Tuesday morning after being admitted, one Tuesday night after my surgery, and one Wednesday morning before being discharged. I took that several hours after the hemorrhage occurred.
Ah well....as I said in my initial post...the majority will push on that Kudzu is perfectly safe and that there is no need to worry about things like that.
I'm glad it's your own life in your own hands and not mine. That's all I can say about that.
At this point, it's starting to piss me off. It's like, "Who gives a shit what you went through is related to our wonderful treatment?" You don't want to believe or see that because of the fact that it works so well for you. If you have to admit that these kinds of things can happen, then you have to admit that maybe it isn't as safe as was originally thought ... which is a scary thing for people who are trusting it completely.
I'm not saying we shouldn't use it. But I truly think that even more needs to be done to find out the exact mechanisms and reasons behind why certain people will bleed. To my knowledge, I had no predisposing factors. My surgery was so long ago that it should not have been an issue.
Think what you will. As I said, it's your life in your own hands and your choices to make. Just don't berate me for the choices I made. Had you been there and seen that blood, it probably would have scared you, too.
Carrie
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ozzy
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #594 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:01am » |
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Carrie,
Maybe it sounds like I won't can't believe the kudzu to be the sole culprit. And I still believe the kudzu is not the sole culprit.
If you recall, I was the one that suggested to you to check with your doctor(s) before starting on the kudzu. I am sure that before your operation somebody should've asked you to disclose all your medications (including herbal). With all that said, it was the hospital and doctors negligence not to have caught the "mistake" early.
You may also recall, that I am a strong advocate of quitting everything before adding a new variable of treatment. It's just part of the scientific method.
You are not saying explicitly that kudzu is bad. Every medication has adverse reactions. I have yet to find something that doesn't have adverse reactions.
I am sorry it happened to you. You have gone through a lot and continue to go through a lot.
I am not sorry to say that kudzu has worked for a great number of us, without nasty side effects.
I am not sorry to continue saying, check with your doctor(s) before taking new medication
I am not sorry to continue saying, to check effectiveness, just try one treatment at a time.
Every person is an individual (redundant, I know), individual treatment(s) are warranted. Do what works for you.
Thank you for sharing your (bad) experience. It will be helpful.
Ozzy
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E-Double
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #595 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:29am » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:01am, ozzy wrote:
You may also recall, that I am a strong advocate of quitting everything before adding a new variable of treatment. It's just part of the scientific method.
Ozzy |
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I follow this thread so very carefully along with others on alternative treatments, however I have not tried any yet. My first cycle ever experience meds and though I have been close to wanting to come off I personally can't yet......to the point:
There are so many variables that do need to be taken into consideration and in an ideal situation quitting everything would be key but what if someone can not and the research leans towards it being acceptable to use. As far as scientific method goes you can also consider treatment and withdrawl procedures to see if adding something to the cocktail was the variable that made the difference. If you add it and it works you may withdraw it to see if you go back to baseline.....It is not always the most ethical thing to do whether it be in medical science or behavioral science but it will show an effect.
Completely valid points on both sides. I've always been a person to take a chance with my well being yet with this stuff..meds different herbs and cocktails I am still in my infancy thus I am hesitant.
I applaud all of you!
It is however extremely beneficial to know these possible outcomes as much it is important for us to know not to mix triptans. I have had a well known doctor earlier in my cycle tell me it was ok.....despite what I read.
I take many of your words over doctors (it seems many know more than docs)....
For better for worse!
Good luck all and be careful with anything we do.
E
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2005, 11:32am by E-Double » |
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godsjoy777
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #596 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 1:40pm » |
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All very interesting....Because of these posts I have decided to go off the Zu ( temperarily of course) just for a few days while I get an endodontic surgical proceedure done....I have a retreat on a root canal, plus the Dr is going to do a slight incision to go into the top of the old root and shove the old pin out so she can fill it with all new material.....anyway.....because it involves surgery and possible bleeding, I have decided to just be off the Zu for 3 days prior to the surgery....I didn't think to discuss it with the Endodontist.....Hopeing for pain free nights and days-I still have my O2 and fully intend to get back on it when it is over if the clusters come back.....I've just passed my 7th month mark and going into the 8th month of this cycle....uncharted territory for me....
Hope to meet some of you crazy clusterheads this summer.....maybe I'll be out of cycle by then....(by the grace of God).
Blessings,
Karen
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Zephrah
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #597 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 5:32pm » |
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hey everyone, I know i'm new and i'm a supporter, not a direct sufferer. ALL drugs have some adverse effects and ALL drugs are bad for some people, legal or not, herbal or not. This is just one more example. The doctors will always blame whatever variable would make them not responsible for the situation that was caused. If you hadn't taken the Kudzu, your doctor might be the one held responsible for what happened. But they probably would have found something else to blame it on like some strenuous activity, stress or anything else. i'm not saying that everyone should take it, the kudzu could have been a contributing factor. Its all at your own risk.
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Zephrah
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #598 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 6:12pm » |
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Oh yeah, sorry Lizzy I forgot, you had stated in an earlier post that your neurologist read a little about Kudzu and told you that you could start taking it. I don't know how to paste it. Sorry. Anyway, if ANY medical professional told you it was okay to take it and they think that was the cause of your bleed, that should be the responsible person.
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ivanov
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Re: 5-HT activity in Kudzu
« Reply #599 on: Apr 22nd, 2005, 10:22pm » |
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Since I am taking naproxen for my arthritis and fibro this whole bleeding issue with kudzu has gotten me scared shitless.
Lizzie after going over your kudzu survey I saw that you were taking the antibiotic Levaquin. One of the rare side effects of this drug is bleeding and is even contraindicated with the use of Coumadin because of this possibility. I do not know if this was the factor that but you through this terrible ordeal but I think it should be investigated.
Dan
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